Atheist Girls

Sweet Girls

2010-06-13T23:48:00.001-04:00

My grandmother once said that she would rather I be sweet and mentally retarded than be smart and arrogant.

The concept of “sweetness” is one that is oppressive to people, especially women. I strive to be polite, pleasant, hospitable, generous, but never sweet!

Sweet girls are submissive and inoffensive. Sweet girls never speak their minds. Sweet girls never contradict anyone. Sweet girls never question. Sweet girls never talk about anything more substantial than the weather or fashion or boyfriends. Sweet girls go to church. Sweet girls, if they have any brains, don’t show them. Sweet girls respect authority. Sweet girls speak softly. Sweet girls never get mad. Sweet girls are ladylike. Sweet girls do what their families tell them, even when they’re not girls anymore. Sweet girls get married. Sweet girls have babies. Sweet girls aren’t activists. Sweet girls aren’t political. Sweet girls don’t have opinions. Sweet girls don’t have personalities. Sweet girls don’t have emotions, except for the warm and fuzzy kind. Sweet girls sacrifice. Sweet girls exist only for others. Sweet girls have no self.

I AM NOT A SWEET GIRL!!!

The Future of this Blog

2009-08-17T03:45:00.009-04:00

I haven’t posted in forever, and I’ve really been thinking about the future of this blog. The plural part of Atheist Girls hasn’t been true for a while. I bear no ill will toward Philosophychick or thegecko, as they have busy lives. Philosophychick is starting a Master’s program as well as planning a wedding. Thegecko has a new job and various responsibilities. I doubt they will write here anymore.

I am entering the last phase of my Master’s program. That doesn’t leave me a lot of time to write, although long days in the lab waiting on experiments to finish (while having the laptop handy) might lead to some posts. There is also the issue of motivation. When I began this blog, I was not a new atheist, but I was a newly inspired atheist activist. I was also closeted and needed a place to vent. The blog is no longer useful for venting because of 2 reasons: One, that my family now knows about it and reads it, and two, that I can pick up the phone and vent at any time to my wonderful boyfriend, one of the coolest atheists in the world, Matt Dillahunty of the Atheist Experience. Whereas I used to write blog posts in anger and frustration, now I just talk it out with him. This is good for my mental health, but not so good for the blog. I also read so many good blogs, like Pharyngula, Friendly Atheist, Skepchick, and others. Among all those, they touch on almost every subject that I could hope to talk about, and usually more eloquently than I could hope to say it.

I wrote this to have something to put on here for the summer. Maybe I will get inspired again, maybe I won’t. Since I'm not psychic (if I was, I would be out spending my million dollars), we'll just have to see what the future holds. In any case, the other girls and I didn’t drop off the face of the earth, we’re still alive, happy, and atheist!

I'm going to TAM 7

2009-07-08T10:10:00.004-04:00

Hey Everyone!

Sorry I haven't been posting, but I've been really busy. One of the things I've been busy doing is getting ready for TAM 7.

I will be in Las Vegas in 11 hours!!!

Ray Comfort's Book

2009-05-22T18:57:00.003-04:00

I received 2 books in the mail today, "You can Lead an Atheist to Evidence, but You can't Make Him Think," and "The Atheist Bible."

These were given free of charge by Ray Comfort's Living Waters Ministries and the "Evidence" book is autographed. I thank Ray for giving these out, and I will read it thoroughly...and then rip it apart here. :)

Another Accidental Outing

2009-05-04T00:01:00.004-04:00

I empathize with Everything Else Atheist and her story of being outed.

Let this be a lesson to closeted atheists everywhere: You can't hide forever. I had elaborate security protocols, and it seemed that EEA did as well, but a conscious or unconscious desire to not live a lie led to the leaking of small details that eventually led to the full outing.

The best advice I can give other atheists going through this process is to let your family know you still love them, remember that they are responsible for their own reactions, and seek support from the atheist community, especially people who have gone through this before.

Post Outing

2009-04-14T21:46:00.005-04:00

As some of you may have noticed, I restricted the blog for a time after my outing. This was due to my family finding my blog. They actually read all the posts before it was blocked, so it was ultimately unnecessary. I have reread my posts and have decided to let the blog stand. Most of their objections had nothing to do with what was actually written, but was about what they read into it.

Currently, relationships with my family are strained. I got through Easter with little comment, having had long conversations with various family members the previous day. They are very upset and disapproving, of course. I am sorry that they feel that way, but I do not apologize for being myself. While it was hard to deal with their feelings, I am relieved to not be living a lie anymore. While I was not pleased about the timing or the method by which I was outed, I believe it may have been for the greater good. As I matured, I was drifting away from my family anyway, and I feel this forced my hand to become a truly independent adult.

So for the time being, the blog will be open and posts will continue when I have time to do them. There will not be many posts about family issues because they know about the blog now.

Thanks, loyal readers, for sticking around and supporting me through this!

I've been outed!!!!!

2009-03-30T01:19:00.001-04:00

My grandmother fucking googled me and found some pictures of me at the Godless Pub Crawl.

All hell is breaking loose.

Details to follow at some point...

Winter Cruise Outreach Event

2009-02-19T18:29:00.010-05:00

"Winter Cruise" is ETSU's name for an annual event where student organizations have informational booths, fundraisers, and general fun. The Atheist and Freethought Club had a booth giving away pamphlets and candy and was quite successful. We had several people show interest in the club, and we had one Christian argue with us (I would have liked to have had more). We got a few strange looks, too, but we had a lot of fun.

Our posters:

Note: We later realized the Treaty of Tripoli quote was inaccurate and changed it.

Our finished booth:

Happy Darwin Day!

2009-02-12T08:20:00.007-05:00

Happy Darwin Day, everyone!

I will be celebrating by doing research on Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), a nasty little critter that has evolved to be resistant to many antibiotics. (And if anyone says "That's just microevolution," get educated.)

Oh, and I might go to the Darwin Day celebration at the Gray Fossil Museum.

I hope everyone has a fun and safe day, and gets to celebrate science and annoy some creationists in the process!

Hot Mormon Chat

2009-02-10T01:06:00.007-05:00

I am deviously ecstatic over the new time-wasting toy I have found. The Mormon Church has kindly instituted a service where you can chat at all hours with (presumably hot) 19-year-old missionary boys about your questions on Mormonism. Theological debate on demand? It makes me pretty stimulated! All you have to provide is a first name and an email address (fake works fine).

Now it is true that they try not to deviate from their script, and they're fond of links that explain points of doctrine, but you can get some fun stuff out of them too. I encourage everyone to try multiple times, with multiple personalities and approaches. Any time they spend talking to a confirmed atheist is time spent away from vulnerable people.

Feeling really randy? You can also order in some Missionary boys for delivery.

How to start an Atheist club at your College

2009-01-28T11:22:00.013-05:00

Last semester, Philosophychick and I started the Atheist and Freethought club of ETSU. We’ve been pretty successful, with several dozen members and lots of fun activities. Recently, many people have been asking me for advice on starting their own atheist clubs at their schools. I don’t have any special expertise, but I can tell you what worked for us. I’ve decided to put my general advice down in this blog post, although anyone is still welcome to contact me to ask more questions.

1. Know the rules. The first thing to do is investigate the procedure for starting an officially registered club. Look on your school website or go to the student organization resource center to get the forms. You will likely need a faculty advisor. The best thing to do is ask a professor you know well and promise them that you’ll do all the work and that you will not contribute to their load. If you don’t know any professors well enough, ask around the Philosophy Department to see if anyone is interested. That’s always a hotbed of atheists. :) You may also have to write up a constitution and have meetings, so be prepared to wait for approval. In the meantime, use facebook and friends to drum up interest and maybe even have some “unofficial” gatherings.

2. Use your resources. Get to know the secretaries and administrators in the resource center. Find out the procedures for getting funding. Learn about the “goodies” your club is entitled to, such as copies, meeting space, website etc…

3. Facebook. A presence on facebook is absolutely essential to getting members. Make a group for your school, invite your friends, and use it to announce your events and meetings. Use the advanced search to find people at your school who put “atheist” as their religion and message them about the new club starting.

4. Fliers. Not everyone is on facebook, so you also need to reach people on campus as they walk around. You may have to have fliers approved and stamped before they can be posted. It is best to cover as many buildings as you can. Be sure to heavily cover the Student Center and science buildings. Check your fliers frequently because they will be torn down. We have had to replace them multiple times a day in some cases before the culprit got the message that we weren’t backing down.

5. First Meeting. At the first meeting, be sure to get the contact information for all the members. Another important thing to do is find out what activities the club members are interested in and what they want the club to be. One fun icebreaker is to have everyone give their “testimony.” In my group, we found that about half of the members had been raised nonreligious and the other half had been raised very fundie Christian. The makeup of your group will determine the dynamics and “flavor” of it. For example, in my experience, the ex-christians seem to be very interested in a supportive social community, and the born and raised atheists seem to be more activism-oriented. YMMV.

6. Information booths. A great way to recruit potential members and educate other students is to have an information booth. Through your resource center, you can usually reserve a booth or table in the student center, quad, or other heavily trafficked area. Have a big, flashy sign, give out candy and pamphlets, and just talk to people who come over. You may get some fundies, but that’s the fun part. Free pamphlets can be found here.

7. Affiliate. CFI, the Secular Student Alliance and other groups have great resources you can use. Also, don’t be afraid of the religious student organizations. You could partner with them to bring speakers to debate about atheism and/or evolution. As most atheists are also for equal rights for gays and lesbians, let your schools’ GLBT group know you support them. Also, be sure to spread the word about the Atheist Experience and Non-Prophets!

8. Activities. Once you have a club started, you need things to do. Examples include social nights at restaurants, movie nights (Jesus camp, Expelled, Dawkins documentaries), bringing speakers to campus, etc…

9. Have fun! It’s easy to get bogged down in the details and administration of the club and forget the reason you started it in the first place, so be sure to make friends and have fun.

Good luck to everyone who starts a club, and if you have any other tips, put them in comments or send them to me.

Anti-Atheism and Teaching

2009-01-22T22:02:00.008-05:00

As many of you know, I am a graduate assistant at my university, and this entails teaching intro microbiology lab classes. Over Christmas break, I became aware that I actually had a profile on ratemyprofessors.com. There were 2 ratings, one that was glowing and one that was not. The one that was not was chock-full of lies. It said something to the effect of “This crazy girl doesn’t believe in god, is always inviting you to her stupid atheist club, and she doesn’t know how to bring microbiology down to a normal person’s level.” I was more than a little pissed off because this person was mostly denigrating my beliefs, not my teaching, and because it is untrue that I proselytize in the classroom. I had my suspicions on who it might be and what their problem is.

Remember “Jim” from this post? Jim was in my class last spring semester. He wasn’t a good student and was a very heavy partier. I happened to see him on one occasion during fall semester because he was in my building retaking the class from a colleague. When I casually mentioned the atheist club, he went into debate mode, the details of which are in the previous post. He promised to have a talk with me again, but he never did. I think he knew he was pretty well beaten in the debate. As far as I know, he is the only student that knows I am an atheist because I have never brought it up in class. At the end of last semester, my colleague informed me that he failed the class again. I also saw on facebook that he had some relationship troubles as well. My theory is that he is angry due to his own (mostly self-inflicted) problems and that the rate my professors page was merely an easy target.

Because of the untruth of his post, I flagged the rating and it was removed from the site. However, it got me thinking about the possible consequences of being out at school. My advisor had seen me debating with Jim in the hallway and later cautioned me about proselytizing to students, until I told him that Jim wasn’t currently my student. My advisor is a devout Hindu who frequently debates atheism with me and feels that my group is not necessary since we “don’t believe in anything,” so his bias would likely be a bit skewed against me if the issue came up again with a new student. As the president of the Atheist and Freethought Club, I have to be out and outspoken. In February, there is something called “Winter Cruise.” This is where all the student organizations have booths in the student center for recruitment and fundraising. We will be giving out pamphlets and candy and probably fielding some debate as well. In the hundreds of people that file by our booth, there will be former, current, and future students who will learn of my atheism. An anonymous comment on a website is nothing, but a stronger accusation could cause a problem for me even if I was eventually cleared. A student could do this because they were mad about their grade, or simply because they’re an anti-atheist bigot. It’s appalling to me that in this part of the country a teacher could wear a cross and Christian t-shirts to class and be the president of a Christian club with little fear of consequences even if they do proselytize.

Despite Jim’s (or whoever's) little online hissy fit, I have decided that I will not stop working with my club or being open with my beliefs when appropriate. As a graduate student, I am both fully teacher and student, and I do have rights, spelled out in the school rules as well as the Constitution. I will be out and proud and I will try to be an effective president of my club. I will remain scrupulously neutral in the classroom, but I will not be afraid to be me outside of it.

Happy New Year!

2009-01-07T11:51:00.005-05:00

Happy New Year everyone! I know it's a little late, but I've been pretty busy. I spent Christmas with my family, which was fun, even if there was way too much Jesus for my taste. I've just gotten back from a New Year's trip to Austin, where I had a great time with ACA folks.

I'm also proud of knitting an FSM toy for the Atheist Experience show as seen in this video. And no, I don't have time to make and sell these. You can find a pattern for making it yourself here.

Here's hoping everyone has a great 2009!

Atheist Christmas

2008-12-08T15:50:00.005-05:00

I love Christmas. No, really, I LOVE Christmas. I put up my tree in mid-November, I’ve been listening to Christmas music longer than that, and I’ve been wearing Christmas pajamas, jewelry, and accessories since Black Friday. I knitted a scarf that is named the “Christmas threw up” scarf. I go all out for my absolute favorite holiday.

Some people who know of my atheism are surprised, and I really don’t know why. We all know that Christmas has pagan roots anyway, and it has been almost completely secularized in our culture. My Christmas tree (white with all candy cane ornaments), candy canes, Santa Claus, the Grinch, red and green, bells, etc… aren’t religious. The only decorations that acknowledge the Christian background of Christmas are the advent candles and the nativity scene and I do not have these in my home. Even if I did, celebrating the birth of a man named Jesus, who, if he existed, said some good things, does not equate to worshiping him as god. Even singing the most religious of carols is simply a cultural tradition. I do it because it feels good. Even Richard Dawkins likes Christmas, so I’m in good company.

In America, the vast majority of atheists do celebrate Christmas in a secular way, yet many I know still seem conflicted about it. They shouldn’t be. Christmas is one of the only good things to come out of Christianity, and just as they changed it from a pagan holiday, we can take it back to promote our values and enjoyment. As a very Christmasy atheist I celebrate a Christmas filled with the humanist values of family, love, and charity.

To everyone, Merry Christmas, Happy Solstice, and have fun!

Late Thanksgiving

2008-12-01T10:31:00.005-05:00

It’s a little late, but here is what I am thankful for this year:

· I am thankful we live in a free country with rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

· I am thankful that I threw off the yoke of religion long ago.

· I am thankful that Obama won the election and That Bitch Sarah Fucking Palin lost.

· I am thankful to be doing productive research in grad school.

· I am thankful for my family, fundie though they may be.

· I am thankful for my friends, especially Philosophychick, the gecko, and the members of the ETSU Atheist and Freethought Club.

· I am thankful for my boyfriend.

· I am thankful for Matt Dillahunty, Russell Glasser, Denis Loubet, Shilling, Martin Wagner, Tracie Harris, Don Baker, Jen Peeples, and everyone else who make the Atheist Experience and the Non-Prophets the best atheist podcasts out there.

· I am thankful that the semester is almost over and Christmas is coming!

Matt Dillahunty is coming to TN!

2008-11-10T16:27:00.007-05:00

The Atheist and Freethought Club of ETSU is hosting a social night with a very special guest.

Saturday, Nov. 22

6:00 P.M.

Freiberg's German Restaurant

203 E. Main St

Johnson City, TN

Our Special guest is The Great Matt Dillahunty, President of the Atheist Community of Austin, host of the Atheist Experience TV show, one of the Non-Prophets, writer on the Atheist Experience blog and an all-around kick-ass atheist role model.

Anyone near the Tri-cities should come out and join us for food, fun, fellowship, and beer!

Childlike Faith

2008-11-07T23:58:00.003-05:00

Matthew 18:3:
3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mark 10:15:
15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

These verses are often used by Christians to promote the blind acceptance of dogma called “faith.” Children believe nearly everything they are told. It is held as admirable that we believe everything we are told in Christianity without question, as a little child believes its parents. Christians are to be perpetual children under God the Father, and quite often, Big Brother, the pastor.

When I was about 5 years old, my grandparents and I took a trip to Florida, as we often did during my childhood. We had driven all day in the rain, across Georgia and Alabama. I was quite upset because I wanted the sun to be out while I was at the beach. I do not remember how the conversation went, but finally it was decided that the proper thing to do was to pray for the rain to stop. Never mind the farmers and such, my beach time was most important. With faith like a child, I fervently prayed for the rain to stop. The rain stopped and the sun came out immediately after we crossed the Florida line. My grandparents and I were amazed at the answered prayer and our faith was strengthened. Nowadays, of course, I realize that it was simply a coincidence that we were praying just as the rain stopped and a look at the weather forecast beforehand could have told us this would happen. It’s also a case of cherry-picking. I’ve conveniently forgotten every time I prayed for the rain to stop and it didn’t, while remembering this exceptional occurrence. Recently, my grandmother brought up this story again. She said “You had a lot of faith as a child, do you still have that much faith?” I was taken aback by the question and stammered some sort of semi-affirmative answer. It’s amusing, I had no problems lying as a Christian, but as an atheist I can just barely do it to save myself.

When I was little, I prayed for just about everything because this behavior was expected and encouraged. I could tell my faith in prayer was significantly stronger than my parents’ or grandmother’s and they were often amused by my insistence on prayer, even if they agreed with it in principle. Even the most childlike Christian is not quite as faithful as a real child. When I was sick, I asked for prayer. If I couldn’t find something, I prayed. I was one of the prayingest kids you’ve ever seen. Eventually I realized that prayer really didn’t help. My prayers were answered at the same rate as chance no matter what. As I grew up, my faith lessened and finally went away altogether. I think this is as it should be.

As their own book says:

1 Corinthians 13:11:
11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

The Bitch Got Stomped!

2008-11-05T08:43:00.004-05:00

I'm so happy!

Not only do we have the first black president, but That Bitch Sarah Fucking Palin will be kept away from the white house for at least 4 more years.

That is something to celebrate!

The Best Day of the Year

2008-10-30T10:21:00.003-04:00

Today is the best day of the year: My birthday. I am 24 this year.

Philosophychick and I plan to go to our favorite hangout in costumes and drink lots of beer. I am going as a sexy she-devil, and Philosophychick is going as a dominatrix.

We should have lots of sinful fun.

"God has a plan for your life"

2008-10-23T08:24:00.003-04:00

How many times have you heard Christians say that god has a plan for your life? I’ve heard it from my family ever since I can remember. My mother happened to have reproductive problems, and was told she would never bear children. For this reason, my family considers my conception, and the ensuing uncomplicated pregnancy and birth to be a “miracle.” For some reason, the twins who were miscarried after me did not get the benefit of God’s intervention.

My “miracle” status was reinforced by my academic success. I made high grades in school, did well on the ACT, and managed to get a scholarship to college. I attribute a lot of this to the intensive way my grandmother read to me when I was young. Of course, my family attributes this to god. My family never ceases to remind me that since God gave so much to me, he will require much of me in return.

Of course, they don’t actually want me to use my “God-given” brain for too much. Thinking critically about religion, evolution or politics would be a misuse of it. Requiring evidence for claims is sheer arrogance, too. After all, as my grandmother always says, it would be better for me to be kind and retarded than smart and arrogant.

So back to god’s plan for my life. My family is unusual in that they actually accept that higher education, including grad school, could be in god’s plan for a woman, but they also think that marriage to a good Christian husband, children, a house with a white picket fence, and going to church every Sunday is in the plan too. So where does my being an atheist fit into their little scheme? Obviously, being an atheist can’t be in god’s plan for my life, so did god never have a plan and they were wrong? Did I foil god’s plan? If so, then he is not omnipotent. If god has a plan for everyone, then why does anyone need to work to do anything? Why aren’t Christians just sitting around waiting on god to reveal and work his plan? Doesn’t the very concept of a plan interfere with free will? And if god is omniscient, then he knows everything that’s going to happen, so why is any “planning” necessary?

Unbelievably, I have actually heard the concept of “god’s plan for your life” used as a witnessing tactic, as if absolute certainty about all life decisions came as a bonus upon being saved. Just ask some Christian who has been fervently praying about a decision and trying to discern the “will of god” if that is true. Of course, if they end up making the wrong decision, then they just didn’t interpret god’s answer correctly. This concept of god’s plan for your life only adds anxiety to the process of decision-making and causes wasted time in prayer rather than using that time to think rationally or perhaps speak to a real person about whatever problem you may be having.

As a person who doesn’t believe in anything supernatural, I am liberated to make my own plan for my life. I may agonize over whether a decision is the correct one to maximize the happiness of my life, but I do not have to take into account if it is in some god’s “divine plan.” Without the constraints of the predestined plan, a vast expanse of exciting possibilities opens up. A Christian who believes that the book of their life has already been written loses the amazing liberty (and yes, uncertainty) of being a free agent in the natural, untamed world.

I voted

2008-10-17T20:23:00.016-04:00

Hey Everyone! Sorry I've been so lax about the blog lately. I've been doing a ton of research in the lab, teaching my intro lab classes, dealing with some relationship stuff, and also being busy with the Atheist and Freethought club of ETSU.

Philosophychick has been busy getting prepared to graduate with her bachelor's and thegecko has been busy with her Master's thesis. I'm very proud of both of them.

So today was the third day of early voting here in Tennessee. I showed up at the courthouse around 2:30 PM to a very long line. I ended up listening to the latest Atheist Experience show on my ipod to relieve my boredom. After about an hour and a half I got to the counter where they check your voter card or ID. Here was where the problem lies. All the election officials were slow little old ladies. There were plenty of open voting machines, but it took forever to have your card checked. I was finally able to go to the machine and vote.

I picked Barack Obama.

Now I'm not saying that all atheists have to vote for Obama or that I necessarily like him all that much. I viewed it as mostly voting against That Bitch Sarah Fucking Palin (TBSFP) aka..."Caribou Barbie." I haven't said very much on this blog about her because the very thought of her can sometimes make me incapable of writing coherent sentences. It scares the shit out of me that this stupendously ignorant, anti-choice, possibly dominionist, creationist anti-science wackjob could be one old man's heartbeat away from the presidency. That is why I had to take a stand and vote Obama.

In any case, while my vote doesn't really matter because it was cast in a blood-red state, I'm pretty sure Obama will win without me. This map shows how much of a lead he has over McCain at the present time. I find it delightful that the conservatives are going to get their asses kicked. If you think liberals' Bush-bashing got tiresome, just wait until the conservatives start the tirade against Obama. I can just hear my family now screaming about the rapture, the antichrist, and the end times because this man, who is simultaneously Muslim, Atheist, and Jeremiah Wright-style "Christian" got elected. They will pray for his assassination because it was obviously a sign of America's wickedness that we elected him. While the election of Obama has the potential to do very good things for America, the fundie nutjobs are also likely to step up their tactics, and that should prove interesting over the coming years.

So I encourage everyone to get out there and vote!

A Pleasant Conversation with a fundie

2008-09-25T21:28:00.002-04:00

I was doing research today and I stepped out of the lab for a moment. I saw a former student of mine (I TA an intro microbiology lab), let’s call him Jim, and I stopped to talk to him. Jim failed the lecture class because he is a big partier, even going so far as to offer to smoke weed with me, his teacher! I asked Jim how he was doing and he said he was doing ok retaking the micro lecture class with another teacher. Our conversation went quite well until I casually mentioned something about the atheist club.

Jim, who had never mentioned a word about religion before, was shocked at my declaration of atheism. The irreverent partier transformed into a devout Baptist boy in the space of a minute or so, although he remained respectful throughout the discussion. His first question was the typical theist one, “Where did we come from, then?” I said “Evolution.” His face registered pure shock as he slowly absorbed the fact of what I had said. He said that he had never known anyone before who actually believed in evolution. I ended up giving him very brief definitions of the Big Bang Theory, abiogenesis, and evolution. He took in all I said in a very interested and mostly non-confrontational way. The whole concept of non-belief seemed entirely novel to him, and it likely was, since he is a naïve 19-year-old from a small town in the Bible Belt.

He then asked, “What started the Big Bang?” I said “I’m not a physicist, and I don’t know what the current conclusion is, but that doesn’t mean you just stick God into it. You’re answering a question with something that raises far more questions, like where did god come from?” He thoughtfully stroked his goatee and actually conceded the point, “Yeah, you’re right about that. “
However, he went on to accuse science of being just as faith-based as religion is. I severely disabused him of that notion. I pushed the concepts of peer review and constant updating of models and theories with the accumulation of new data. I mentioned that the Bible is full of contradictions and errors, and that this 2000+-year-old book is supposed to be a relevant guidebook for our lives. He perked up when I mentioned the Bible. He said that the bible was full of prophecies that related to what was happening in the world today and that he could show this evidence to me. I responded that I would be delighted to see this evidence anytime and that I was very willing to have further friendly discussions. He said that he would study up on it and get back to me. He confessed that he was not living a particularly Christian lifestyle, but that he still believed.

It was at this point that his usually teasing manner became serious. He said “I guess you don’t believe in heaven and hell, but it’s just tearing me up inside that something could happen to you and you might go to hell.” It was all I could do not to laugh in his face. He no more really cared about me than he cared how he did in his classes. I asked him if he thought it was moral for god to torture people forever just for not believing when he has not given sufficient evidence as to his existence. He seemed somewhat troubled by this, and he made no justification, but only said “That’s just the way it is.”

Then he asked me if I had ever been to church. I said, “I went to church every Sunday for 18 years at a southern Baptist church and was ‘saved’ and baptized. I know what Christianity is. I’ve heard it all before.” His jaw dropped even further at the declaration that I wasn’t just some unchurched heathen. He began to ask about my feelings when I got saved, ostensibly in an effort to ascertain whether I had truly been saved or not. After all, as a Baptist, he believes that one cannot lose their salvation but only backslide. I said that I had had strong emotions when I got “saved,” but that I did not attribute them to anything supernatural now. It was difficult to know how to answer him about my emotional state and if I “felt god”. After all, I do not believe that there is any such thing as being “saved,” but I also do not want to convey the notion that I was not sincere at the time.

At this point, he began to go on his end times kick again. He asked if I would believe if people started disappearing when Jesus came back. I said that if I saw the rapture with my own eyes, I would believe, but that there was no compelling evidence like that now. He said “I’ll pray that you live to see the rapture, then.” I said that was fine. He said “I’ll be praying that you will be convinced when I show you the Bible, too.” I said “I think you’re wasting your time, but if a god exists, then he will know what it will take to convince me, now won’t he? And you can just pray for that.” He said that that statement made him feel much better, and then we parted ways.

The first Official Atheist Club Meeting

2008-09-19T19:52:00.007-04:00

Thursday, September 18 was the first official meeting of the Atheist and Freethought Club of ETSU.

We planned to meet in the Cave (a large cafeteria area), but we had so many people that sitting at one table was not practical. So we went outside to the ampitheater, which worked very well. The total turnout ended up being about 25. Because there wasn't a lot of overlap between social night and the school meeting, we did introductions and "testimonies" again. Again, there was a half and half balance between those raised without religion and those raised in very extreme religions. We had people who called themselves atheists, agnostics, buddhists, and one satanist. We had young freshmen, an older man who had only been atheist a year, an ex-marine who had been to Iraq, a "born-again" atheist (this guy was clinically dead after a seizure, but never saw the light at the end of the tunnel) and many other interesting stories.

We discussed many topics including volunteer and service projects, speakers and events, t-shirts, movie nights, and social nights. After the business portion, many of us stayed to have deep discussions and the ex-marine guy did a reading of some Thomas Paine. All in all, it was a very successful meeting. There will be good things happening this semester.

Sept 14 Church Visit--Free will Baptist

2008-09-14T15:56:00.010-04:00

Philosophychick and I decided to go to church this Sunday. While I’ve had enough church to last a lifetime, PhilosophyChick has only been to church a handful of times. And why shouldn’t she suffer as well?

We originally planned to attend this church, mostly because of its sheer fundieness. However, when we arrived at 10:45 at the hole in the wall storefront, there were only 2 other cars there. We got kind of scared and decided not to go. Fortunately, there were at least 4 other churches we had passed on that road and we picked one.

So we attended Fellowship Free Will Baptist Church. We walked in late, so we were not able to be greeted by the ushers and church ladies in the usual manner of small churches. Like all good Baptists, the majority of people sat near the back, forcing us to pick a pew in the front half of the church. I looked around and the average age of the other attendees (of which there were less than 50 total) was approximately 60. There was only one female in pants (not Philosophychick or I), although long hair was apparently not a tenet of their brand of Baptist belief. The small choir was so twangy that I could not even distinguish the hymns they were singing.

Due to the death of a prominent member of the church and the visitation that was scheduled, the service was abbreviated this Sunday. There were about 2 communal hymns, 2 short choir hymns, and 1 solo. The sermon immediately followed. The passage for today was:

Matthew 7:21-23:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The sermon was on the three types of people found in churches: Pretenders, Perishers, and Partakers.

Pretenders are those people that perform good works and are active in church but are not really saved. These people have not had a personal experience of Jesus and have a “head knowledge,” not a “heart knowledge” of him. The preacher assured us that such people were going to hell if they did not ultimately find Jesus for real. This part of the sermon was the most calculated to instill fear in the hearts of those present.

Perishers are your standard unbeliever. They make no pretensions to Christianity and are therefore lost. The preacher took great pains to raise his voice and invoke fire, brimstone and torment during this part of the sermon.

Partakers are your truly believing Christians. They are the ones who have not only believed in Jesus, but have received his salvation. Then there was a standard altar call and invitation hymn where the preacher exhorted us to turn from being a pretender or a perisher into a partaker.
After the sermon, the preacher had to leave to go to the funeral home, but a substitute was dispatched to shake hands with the visitors in the vestibule. As Philosophychick and I left, many people shook our hands and invited us to come back.

So , all in all, it wasn’t that fundie and was rather boring. Perhaps next time, we should ask around about a good church instead of having to pick one at the last minute. I’d like to see something with some snake handling or speaking in tongues. That would drive the point home of how insane this all is, as well as scaring Philosophychick to death.

So, my readers, what denomination shall we choose next to broaden our horizons?

Reply to Gertrude 7

2008-09-14T14:20:00.002-04:00

Gertrude,

Talk origins is not an atheist site. Here is their discussion on theistic evolution.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html

I grew up in an extremely Christian environment. Our school had a lot of prayer, some of it technically illegal for public school. My school did not teach evolution or comprehensive sex education. Yet we had a very high pregnancy rate. What do you attribute that to, if religion is the cure?

3. You are not reading what I'm writing.

The human brain is larger and more complex than non-human animals. This is why we have civilization and other animals don't.

White people and black people are the SAME SPECIES! One is not the predecessor to the other. We are part of a large human population that is evolving together. The brains of blacks and whites has been shown to be the same size and we have the same intelligence. We are equally as evolved. You are the one injecting race into this.

And by the way, don't call me "young lady." It's very patronizing.

Email from Gertrude 7

2008-09-14T12:55:00.003-04:00

I don't even know where to start. Gertrude is just so fractally wrong.

Evolution is, at most, a controversial theory that the liberals want to teach to our kids as fact. You should perhaps use some more reliable sources then a ATHEIST anti-Creationist website. But I guess that is to much to ask for?

If the teens of today where properly taught the teachings of Jesus Christ and the Holy Bible, we would not have the problems we have today. Instead, because of evolutionary propaganda infecting our school system, we have teens running around thinking they are monkeys, sleeping around, using drugs and creating Havoc. You, of course, Blame this on Religion, the CURE, instead of accepting reality and how good it once where.

As you are so young, you did not grow up under the good times when Jesus Christ was in our School, protecting the youth and their innocence, but I did. So trust me on it, or read your history young lady.

1. I see no evidence, only a faith of it.

2. -

3. This is the most absurd part of your mails so far. First,you claim human beings are superior to 'other' animals (as weare all animals according to the Evolutionary Theory), and then you switch, and say we are NOT superior. You need to make up your mind young lady.

If Evolution is True, as you state. Then we have EVOLVED and got this big brain of ours. This is your words. WE are BETTER then the other animals. THAT MEANS we are also BETTER then negros, as they are our predecessors. Or are you saying we no longer are Evolving?
These are your words. Read up on what you said. YOU stated that HUMANS are Superior to other Animals BECAUSE of our large brain. Then (now) you say that Negros, whom are (according to your model) our predecessors, are EQUAL, even when we are suppose to be EVOLVING as we speak. This makes no sense. Either we ARE evolving, and therefore, Whites being the newest branch, Better and bigger brains, whiles negros, being older models, smaller brains.

Or did Evolution stop? Where? When? WHEN did this 'big brain'come? Where do you draw the line? When did our 'monkey like'ancestors Get this brain, and that Made the Human? Or how does this work?

Do you even get what you been saying?

Reply to Gertrude 6

2008-09-14T07:20:00.001-04:00

Gertrude,

Evolution actually is true.
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

Evolution does not imply any moral values. STDs and Teen pregnancy are caused by inadequate sex education. I had abstinence-only education. They lied about condoms and said they were useless. This did not cause anyone not to have sex, they just had sex without condoms and got pregnant.

1. I have given you evidence of the Big Bang. if you want to argue about that evidence and say it has problems or it is not convincing, please do that. You cannot assert that I have shown no evidence whatsoever.

2. Same as above about the evidence.

3. You are not listening to me. White people DID NOT evolve from modern-day black people. Evolution is not a ladder where what is newest is best and most fit.

All humans are the same species, just with different phenotypes. Different races can interbreed and we all have the same intelligence. Because whites and blacks mix and are not reproductively isolated, we can't become 2 separate species. We mix our genes together and we evolve at the same rates. This makes us all equal in an evolutionary sense and in a moral sense.

4. The U.S. is NOT based on the Bible or Christianity.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/Tripoli.htm

'Thou shalt not kill" IS an atheist value. All societies have always had laws against murder, theft, etc....Religion is not the source or morality.

5. No, I have not been to other countries to do charity work. I work in my microbiology lab trying to find a treatment for antibiotic-resistant staph infections. Is that not worthwhile?

Email from Gertrude 6

2008-09-14T06:38:00.002-04:00

I'm really getting sick and tired of this....

0. Evolution is one of the problems that has caused the issues we have. This is the thing, you have been told that Evolution is actually true, and you seem to seriously believe you are a monkey. I cant really do much about it, I know I am special, I see it in the world, I know im above a slug, You are not (accordingto your belief). I got the facts on my side. Space Shuttles, Cars and Cellphones. Maybe you should ask a monkey for it?

The Schools need to go back to a good education system where the Bible is the root, o we get back on track. We got a big problem with STDs, HIV and teen pregnancies because the youth dont get a proper education about how to act towards their fellow man. They need to know the Bless of marriage. Not that they are monkey and can run around doing anything they want (wich is what you want to teach them).

1. The Big Bang is faith. You cant prove it, you cant show evidence and its simple a way to remove God from the equation. Dont pretend its science. If you haven't changed the definition of science.

2. Once again, you believe nothing made life, and I believe God.You got your faith based on that you want to do whatever you feel like with no consequences, And I follow the Holy Bible helping and caring for people.

3. Done, WE are BETTER. Then they must be INFERIOR. You are contradicting yourself here. First you say we evolve, get better (complex brain), butthen when i point out that that means the Negrod are LESS, you suddenly say its NOT evolution, and we are NOT evolving, oh yes, monkeyw and humans evolve, but then it STOPS...... Wow, your contradiction is amazing. Dont you even see it? Are you serious?

IF WE HAVE EVOLVED, THEN, ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN CONCLUSION, WHITES ARE-SUPERIOR- to BLACKS, because according to your faith, WE COME FROM THEM.You cant now say that we STOPPED evolving and just had skin-colorc hanges,that does not work. Either Evolution is true, like you say, or its not.Well?

4. THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS A CHRISTIAN POPULATION. OUR LAWS AREBASED ON THE MORAL VALUES OF THE BIBLE. So yes, we are run by Gods word.
THU SHALL NOT KILL.... Thats not an atheist moral value, atheist have no values, they are just slime. Thats a CHRISTIAN value. Thats why youare alive today, beause we think people are all equal.

5. You did not answer my question. Have you been abroad visiting andhelping other people in other nations? What you 'believe' is good isyour own subjective opinion, obviously I AM (reality) doing much morethen you because i HELP NOW.

I have done some missionary work in a country called Indonesia. They kill Chistians there, and yet we go to try to save their souls. I made many people see the light of Jesus Christ, and also got threatened by muslims that wanted to kill me. They need good education and understandingof Jesus Christ if they want a life like us in America, and we are doing our best. What are YOU, atheist, doing to help them?

Reply to Gertrude 5

2008-09-13T15:52:00.003-04:00

For your information, Philosophychick is trying to graduate with honors in December. I am in the middle of my program and thus have a bit more time to fool with you.

I agree that the public school system is horrible. Evolution is the backbone of biology and should be taught as such.

1. The Big Bang is based on science. Go research some physics. It is not based on faith. Here is some evidence for it. If you have specific objections, please give them.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html

2. We do not know in exact detail how abiogenesis happened, but we know what is possible based on experimentation. Until further evidence is discovered, abiogenesis is a plausible explanation for the origin of life.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/

3. I said that human beings had evolved a larger and more complex brain than other animals. This makes us smarter, yes, but not necessarily superior morally or at survival. All humans have evolved. White people are not "newer and the best" over black people. Our DNA is much more alike than not. Only some superficial changes have occured, we are still the same species and thus are equal.

4. The U.S. is NOT run by religion. We have separation of church and state. Don't you get that?

Atheists are not trying to take away your rights. We have rights to assemble and express ourselves too. No atheist wants to "prevent you from living a good life."

I have done much charitable work in my life, and there are many secular charities. I believe that charity is far more moral when it is offered without proselytization.

Email from Gertrude 5

2008-09-13T15:21:00.003-04:00

I have not heard from your friend, perhaps she is not enough educated to answer these simple questions? In any case, I wanted to do my best to give you a proper response, but at the moment I am visiting South Africa doing missionary work trying to help the people taking in Jesus Christ so they can improve their lifes.

0. Yes, I was just curious. No insult intended, I was just curious where you got these silly ideas from, and simple assumed that you got indoctrinated from the public school system (which is horrible and hopefully the new president will fix).

1. The Big Bang, which you cant possible deny, is simple faith. You may call it a 'scientific theory' all you want,but that not make it 'science'. You may claim your belief in Big Bang but DO NOT pretend its nothing more then faith from your side.

2. Abiogenesis is, in the same way as Big Bang, just faith.There is no evidence for thus, and you cant possible sit there and say its nothing MORE then YOUR BELIEF. Do not pretend its science.
Just the last comment 'We don't know exactly how it happened, but itis based on sound evidence', says it all. You dont know how ithappened, but its based on sound evidence...... Genius. And I am the crazy one believing in a God?

3. If we all evolved, we are the newest and best, right? The fact that you are saying that Human Being are superior then other animals such as, lets say a dog, horse or spider, but Not a Negro (which we are according to the Evolutionary model), is a contradiction. You seem a bit nervous about talking about this field, why? How come? You dont like the consequences of your belief?

4. Interesting, maybe you should give a bit of a read what Communismactually is. You, by your comment, have shown complete ignorance aboutthat particular belief system.

Further, United States of America, the greatest nation on the planet,is also run by religion. Strange, so why dont we live in poverty and backwardness like Russia? China? Cuba? Etc... Well, its because wefollowthe word of God, and this has made us, as a people, the best. Now you, a tiny minority want to prevent us from living a good life promoting hatred and none-life (believing nothing) instead of God Almighty and JesusChrist.

Like I said earlier, I am in South Africa at the moment, trying to spread the word of Jesus Christ. The people here look at us like gods. They see that America is the greatest nation on the planet, but yet, do not do what we do. They simple do not seem to understand. I walk round here giving money and helping them accepting Jesus Christ, so they can build a nation like ours.

I do this for nothing in return, I do it because my religion tells me to Help others. And as I am from such an advanced nation, whiles these people live in poverty, ignorance and dispair, I SHOULD help them. Tell me,how often do YOU go to a poor country trying to help people?

Reply to Gertrude 4

2008-09-12T16:09:00.001-04:00

First of all, I'm 24. I don't see how that matters, as there are atheists of all ages.

I was not indoctrinated into evolution at school. My school did not teach evolution at all because I am from the prong in the buckle of the Bible belt. I have read extensively about evolution on my own, and I am now taking a graduate class on it.Evolution does not say we are monkeys. It says that today's apes and us evolved from a common ancestor.

1. What science are you talking about? There are both theistic and atheist sceintists. There is no accepted scientific theory that says there is 0% chance of the universe existing without god. On the contrary, the Big Bang Theory gives a good explanation of the origin of the universe with no need to invoke god. We are not here by "chance." After the events of the big bang and abiogenesis, natural selection worked to create all speces.

The starting point is: "The universe is here, let's see if we can figure out how it came about.
The starting point is not "Most people believe in God and think he created the universe, so let's try to look for evidence of that and cram it into the gaps of our knowledge."

The burden of proof is on theists who propose a big, complicated entity like a god to explain the universe, not on those who say that there is no evidence of anything supernatural.

The "God gene" has nothing to do with god. It's simply a hypothesis (and a controversial one at that) that says there is a genetic basis to having "spiritual" experiences. Basically some people are more prone to hallucinations than others. This proves nothing about a god.

2. Abiogenesis is the theory that the conditions of the early earth,with an abundance of elements and energy, caused self-replicating molecules in the confines of membranes to form, which eventually formed cells. The Miller-Urey experiment showed that amino acids (the building blocks of proteins) will form in a lab when electricity is added to a mixture of basic elements. We don't know exactly how it happened, but it is based on sound evidence, not a religion.

3. All humans evolved from a common ancestor and have been evolving since. The fact that dark skin seems to be wild-type and lighter skin a mutation does not mean black people are "less evolved." All races of humans now are different from how they started. Caucasions lost their pigments when they moved to less sunny areas and more vitamin D absorption was needed. People who stayed in Africa still needed the dark pigment, but they changed in other ways.

No reputable research has ever shown that there are racial differences in intelligence.

4. Cuba and China have problems because Communism is a dogmatic, anti-freedom system of government. Islamic countries are bad because the government is run by religion. America is a great country because we have freedom and separation of church and state.

Our country is not run by Christianity, even if most of our people are Christians. Our country is based on the ideals of freedom, which includes relgious freedom. Where there is religious freedom, religion tends to flourish. The fact that both freedom and religion flourish in America does not prove that one is dependent on the other.

The Latest from Gertrude

2008-09-12T10:06:00.003-04:00

Gertrude wrote back. I haven't responded yet, perhaps y'all can help me figure out what to say. :)

I shall do my best to try to explain these things to you.I dont know how old you are, but it seems you are young,and no insult intended, rather naive. And been indoctrinated into the 'evolutionary model' by your school. This is sad, I hope you think of yourself more then a monkey.

1.You:
> None of that is evidence for god.

Yes it is. The likelihood for us to happen by chance ismore or less, zero. Our existence is prove enough. That science proves it, should have ended all debate, but it seems that you, no doubt raised on the mantra 'science is true', denies it. Somewhat odd if I say so myself. We have the reasearch of the 'god gene' s a perfect example ofwhat we do.

In any case, you would need to provide evidence or some such to provide any basis for your claim of denial of God. Seriously,you need something to debate specifically here if you want to even question this fact.

2. Abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis is that life comes from none-life. This is a religion that Evolutionist need to keep their worldview on land. Its not a valid argument, its purely fictoin/fantasy, nothing based upon any SCIENCE.

3. Humans are above animal. We have a soul, We acknowledge our Creator.

Out of curiousity, does your evolutionary views consider Negros lessor equal to Whites? I mean, I want to see if you contradict yourself. If you are a True Evolutionist, you would claim we Evolved from negros, right?So they are Inferior, LESS BRAIN you said, right?
Well? This is going to be interesting.

4. And what are you so proud of? Our nation is great BECAUSE of our moral and religious guidelines, THAT what made us great. You cant just cut away the basis. Why is Communist Russia not the greatest? Why is Communist Cuba not the best? Why is Muslim Indonesia not the best?
Could there be we have found the Right God?

Fortunately, they ain't all whackjobs...

2008-09-11T20:30:00.003-04:00

Social night last thursday was fantastic. Three hours of good, cheap food, intelligent conversation, and meeting new and interesting people. I couldn't indulge in the margaritas, unfortunately, since I had to drive myself home. The husband got the late shift at work that night, so I was on my own til well after midnight. After saying good night to old and new friends and dragging my tired self home, I decided it was time to tend to my fish. I have a big, grouchy cichlid who weighs in at about one kilo, and his favorite hobby is destroying the tank equipment, because apparently it annoys him. So I had both arms in the water up to my shoulders trying to put the filter back together, and suddenly the power went out. And scared the bejeezus out of my cichlid. So the little bastard bit me and then swam at top speed face first into the far tank wall. I know this because I heard the thud.

After lighting a couple of old-fashioned gas lamps we have as souveniers from the Great Power Outage of 2007, I grabbed a big flashlight and headed outside. My next door neighbor was out on the sidewalk with her cell phone calling the power company. Her kids were with their father and my husband was still at work and we were facing at least another half hour of no electricity, so we decided to head out in search of an open restaurant. Which is kind of ironic, because after spending dinner with a group of atheists, I wound up having dessert with a conservative christian.

This neighbor (who shall from now on be referred to as NL, for Neighbor Lady) is from a denomination we can't quite figure out. For starters, all the women wear skirts 100% of the time. Seriously, I have even seen NL jogging in a skirt. At no point in time have I ever seen her, her daughters, her mother, or her female church friends in pants. Yet, I wandered into their Memorial Day barbecue in cargo khakis and nobody batted an eye. She knows we're not religious and yet still thinks of us as a good influence for her kids and welcomes our company. She has invited us to come to her church any time we like, but not in a pushy way, and after that one invitation has never mentioned it again. She doesn't believe a marriage can ever be dissolved in god's eyes, but is divorcing her abusive husband legally, for her own sake and for her kids. She believes in the bible, but accepts evolution as a theory supported by physical data and furthermore, understands why Creationism is Not Science. Everyone at her church (that we've met) is like this. She lives by "traditional" gender roles, but thinks it's wonderful that I'm career-oriented and my husband is the domestic, because it works for us. We had the following exchange over coffee:

NL: "[Kid#1] saw a program on TV today where they said that some germs are actually beneficial. She didn't believe it, so I told her she should ask you since you know about germs."
Me: "Actually, it's true. All animals, including humans, have a normal flora of bacteria, viruses, and fungi. In fact, recently it's been suggested that as much as 98% of the cells in our bodies may not be our own. We're sort of like walking planets."
NL: "Wow, that's interesting...and you know, it makes sense really. If god created us from dust, then there were probably germs living in that dust, and they would just become part of us. So are you still thinking about continuing with a PhD after your Masters?"
Me: "Yep"
NL: "That's great. I'm sure you'll have a blast."

I wish all the christians in this area were like her...

Email from Gertrude 3

2008-09-11T09:50:00.004-04:00

More Gertrude:

Let me clear ome misconceptions you have about the real world.

You said:
> that Also, you assert
> science has the evidence of god but do not say what that evidence is.

Yes I did. Read again.

> say that as a mathematician you can clearly state that god likely exists.
> How? Do you have an equation?

Read again, I told you.

>I'd love to see it.
I you would, If you read what I said.

> if your evidence is simply> the existence of the world, I have already stated that the Big bang,> abiogenesis, and evolution can account for what we see. If you have> specific objections to those, please give them.

Hahaha, abiogenesis? Nothing created something and BAM we are here. Yes,maybe you should provide some evidence for that ... FAITH... Trying to remove God anyway you can eh?
First thing Faith.Second thing Faith.Third thing a THEORY that is indoctrinated into the kids because of darwinism.

> 2. If there were instruments that measured souls like you can measure> nitrogen and argon, I would believe in souls.> As for animals, they do not have the brain capacity that we have because> they have not evolved it. That is why we can't "debate" with them, not> because we have a soul and they don't.

Hold on. Dont you believe YOU are an Animal? Now im confused.Contradictory statements. You cant make up your mind? First your equal now you are superior?
We ARE special. Saying anything else is just silly. Look at us, look what we can do, think act. Do you really believe a monkey have a soul? So why doesnt he build Airplanes? Computers? Debate?

> 3. We could debate on what exactly the "greatest country" means, but I> won't> really challenge you there. I don't agree with everything that goes on> here, but I do love America and would never want to live anywhere else.> However,> we are not founded on Christianity. Many of the founding fathers were deists> and religious freedom was specifically written into the bill of rights.> In my opinion, we are a great nation in spite of also being so religious.

WHY would you NOT want to live anywhere else? Somewhat of a contradiction?If the UNITED STATES, a nation of CHRISTIANS (majority) is so good, that must mean our Religion isn't to bad then, eh?
Why not move to Soviet Union? Or China? WHY WOULD YOU NOT want to live anywhere else? Please, give details. It would be good for you to think aout that question, and it may make you go 'oh... ahhhhh!'.

My latest Response:

You stated that
--most people believe in god
--"Science makes it clear" (without telling what specific aspects of science or evidence from science)
--the world, animals, and people exist

None of that is evidence for god.

2. Abiogenesis is not 'something from nothing." Science has shown that given organic chemicals and electrical energy, amino acids form. I also direct you to this news story which details research into the origin of life.http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/09/biologists-on-t.html?npu=1&mbid=yhp

While not all the details are known, there is evidence for how this could occur. Therefore I do not take this on faith. If research came out tomorrow disputing the big bang, abiogenesis, or evolution, I would consider it, see what the experts thought, and eventually change my mind if necessary. In contrast, people who take "god did it" on faith usually never change their minds even when confronted with mounds of evidence. Yes, evolution is a theory, so is gravity. The word theory in science means a model that takes into account the facts, not just something someone pulled out of their ass. And what is "darwinism?"

3. Humans are animals. However, you used the examples of horses and peacocks and stated that the differences between them and humans were due to a soul. I do not believe that anything has a soul. I believe the differences betweern humans and non-humans are due to the brain we have evolved and nothing else.

4. The United States has separation of church and state and its corresponding freedoms. That is what makes our country great. The fact that the majority of people are christians has nothing to do with it, as our constitution is secular and extends freedom to all people. I have the freedom to be both an atheist and a proud American.

Email from Gertrude 2

2008-09-11T09:44:00.003-04:00

The continuation of the email exchange with Gertrude:

1. The essence of God is pretty obvious to most intelligent people in the world. The majority ofthe worlds population beliefs this. There is areason for it. The evidence is everywhere, as well as in science. For example, me being a mathematician can clearly state the extreme unlikelyhood of a God not existing. It's not much of a debate, the numbers (science) makes it clear. And of course,the world, the people living in it, and the animals
all around us. This is no chance.

I agree you can debate about SPECIFIC Gods. Yes, thats a worthy debate, but the essence of God, is not.

2. I dont know how you want me to 'prove' there isa soul. It is like asking someone to 'prove' the air. You want specific measurement argon, nitrogen etc.

A simple way of explaining (or teaching it to atheist that lack the knowledge), could be to tell them to sit down with a couple of animals, lets say a horse, a peacock and a turtle, and have a debate with them about the existence of God. When you are done, you may have an idea what makes humans different, and how the soul is part of us.

3. What does God have to do with our country? Well, ignoring that we are the greatest nation on the planet, and one of the most religious, and pretending that our advanced society is not the cause of clear RIGHT wayto go. I guess none at all. I am so sorry I asked.

4. Okay, I was just curious because of the area we live in. And to (philodophychick), I found the flyer but it (later) disappeared (I dont know if you took it down?) and so I made a search on the internet and found you guys.

My response:

1. It is true that most people believe in god, but as we all know, the majority is not always right.. I do not agree that the essence of god is obvious. First you must define "the essence of god." Also, you assert that science has the evidence of god but do not say what that evidence is. You say that as a mathematician you can clearly state that god likely exists. How? Do you have an equation? I'd love to see it. if your evidence is simply the existence of the world, I have already stated that the Big bang, abiogenesis, and evolution can account for what we see. If you have specific objections to those, please give them.

2. If there were instruments that measured souls like you can measure nitrogen and argon, I would believe in souls. As for animals, they do not have the brain capacity that we have because they have not evolved it. That is why we can't "debate" with them, not because we have a soul and they don't.

3. We could debate on what exactly the "greatest country" means, but I won't really challenge you there. I don't agree with everything that goes on here, but I do love America and would never want to live anywhere else. However, we are not founded on Christianity. Many of the founding fathers were deists and religious freedom was specifically written into the bill of rights. In my opinion, we are a great nation in spite of also being so religious.

4. We had a wonderful social night with 18 people attending. And no, we don't remove the flyers, the Christians do that for us.

Email from Gertrude 1

2008-09-11T08:45:00.003-04:00

Philosophychick received an interesting email in reference to our Atheist Club at ETSU. A fundie, let's call her "Gertrude," asked the following questions:

Hi!
I saw the new 'club' you started and wanted to ask some questions, if thats okay.
1. can you provide any evidence that god does not exist, or is it just your faith/hope that he does not?
2. do you care about your eternal soul at all?
3. are you a true american? do you love this country? If the answer is yes, how can you deny god?
4. and finally, do you have ANY members so far?

This is my response:

Dear Gertrude

I am the secretary of the Atheist and Freethought Club, and i would like to respond to your questions.

1. What is your evidence that God does exist? The burden of proof is on the person making a claim. As for why I don't personally believe that God exists, I see no evidence of it. Science has been able to get a good model of how the Big Bang and evolution worked to make this world as we know it. Also, I have never had personal experience of God. The Bible is full of contradictions and is not reliable evidence either.

2. Please provide evidence that souls exist.

3. What does being an American have to do with God? America was not founded as a Christian country.

4. We have quite a few members and we expect more from social night.

Thanks. I look forward to having a dialogue with you.

The Non-Prophets 7.17

2008-09-09T19:04:00.010-04:00

Everyone should check out the latest Non-prophets show as it's all about That Bitch Sarah Fucking Palin.

I actually got to visit Dillahunty International Studios and see the guys in action. We had a blast. I did get kind of shy and they only managed to get me to talk on the podcast once, though.

Matt, Russell, Shilling, and Denis are just as cool off the air as they are on the air. I was very happy to get to meet them. If you're ever near Austin, I highly recommend going to any ACA event and just hanging out with some great atheist activists.

Social Night was a Success!

2008-09-05T10:15:00.005-04:00

Atheist Social Night was a rousing success! We had 18 attendees, and we had tons of fun at Amigo's. The next step is an official club meeting in a couple of weeks, and another social night in a month.

I was happily surprised by the turnout and thanks to everyone who came. Hopefully, some more people will be able to make it next time.

And a big Fuck You to the people that tore down our flyers. You failed at foiling our plans.

The Official Atheist and Freethought Club of ETSU

2008-09-03T07:53:00.005-04:00

Philosophychick and I got all the paperwork done and now there is an official Atheist and Freethought Club at our school. We will now have access to lots of resources for growing our membership and putting on events. We are also in the process of getting affiliated with the Center for Inquiry.

We're very excited about the coming year!

Tying the Shoe

2008-08-30T20:22:00.001-04:00

Apologies for not posting sooner…
So when I was younger, around 5 or 6 or whatever age it is that one usually learns how to tie one’s shoe, I not too surprisingly often had trouble getting my shoe laces to do what I wanted them to do. It was only during this time of concerted effort at such a young age that I ever believed in a god. Given the circumstances, I understood god to be the “being” held solely responsible for all that happens to us on Earth; I believe that was all that qualified such a being for me at the time. I can’t remember exactly what all qualities I ascribed to that god… but I do remember the specific event around which this post is centered.
I was attempting to tie my shoe. I was having a difficult time. I had heard from multiple sources (enough for me to consider it as a valid possibility) that “god” controlled all things in the world. So, running out of my childish patience, I resorted to the last viable option: I prayed… or at least I called it praying. It was more like ranting. I addressed some nameless, imageless, presenceless being that I deduced might be in the general direction of the ceiling. I think I actually screamed out loud, and may have even shaken my finger at it. I remember being quite upset… possibly crying (I can get intense when I’m frustrated). I said something to the effect of, “Goddamnit, you fucking asshole, why the fuck won’t you let me tie my goddamned shoe?! What the fuck did I ever do to you? If you have all the control in this god for- fucking -saken world, what good does it do for you to keep me from tying my shoe?!”
I don’t know if I knew how to use profanity in such an elaborate way at that point, but that’s the way I remember it right now. As soon as I got all the rage out of my system, calmed down, and focused on my shoe lace, I was able to get it within a minute or so. After that, I regained my confidence and happiness, and left any notion of god or universal control over the universe in the past. Essentially, I went back to being the atheist I usually was.
I find this episode interesting, and it actually reminds me of a quote from a song by the band Voltaire called “God Thinks”. The quote goes, “I hate people who blame the Devil for their own shortcomings, and I hate people who thank God when things go right.” I think this quote communicates a curious message about how and why most people actually incorporate a god into their life. Do they devote evening to prayer or worship into their daily lives, or attend church regularly the way most Biblical interpretations claim they should, or do they resort to prayer or gratitude to a god only when immense good or tragedy occurs in their life? The only difference with me was that the immense happiness I experienced for myself was not met with gratitude aimed at a god, but was rather met with blissful oblivion, and the corresponding unconscious desire to not meta-analyze my enjoyment but rather revel in its pleasure for all that it was worth.
I’m slightly inebriated at the moment, so if parts of this posting seem reminiscent of continental (as opposed to analytic) philosophical contemplations, that is why. I hope it does the world some good.

This is getting Ridiculous...

2008-08-26T09:10:00.003-04:00

Opie and Anthony thought Eve was for real too

First Day of School

2008-08-25T22:33:00.006-04:00

Yesterday was the first day of school for me. I am teaching three sections of lab, taking two classes, doing research, and organizing atheist stuff. I had to get up at the ungodly hour of 6 a.m. to teach the first lab at 8:15. However, my kids in the first class were unusually quick at focusing the microscopes. It made for a good start to the day. In fact, none of the kids in any of the three classes struck me as especially dumb or devoid of common sense. Of course, this is only the first day.

After my three labs, Philosophychick and I trekked across campus putting up flyers for Atheist Social Night. We hit almost every building, and it was a hot and sticky journey. We encountered no resistance, even in crowded hallways, and got some positive response. We will have to continue to monitor the flyers, in case of vandalism. After that, we lunched and parted ways.

Here is an example of one of our flyers, deliberately placed beside a baptist flyer:

I killed time for a few hours and then went to my class on evolution. We will be studying genetic mechanisms of speciation. We took a pretest on ecology and eukaryotic genetics, and I realized I have a lot to learn. I prefer my bacteria to macroscopic organisms, but I have to go outside my comfort zone to fulfill a catalog requirement.

I am very tired now. And I have to get up early every day this week and get back in the grind all over again. It’s all worth it, though. I’m very excited about the possibilities for this new semester and I hope to keep up this enthusiasm all year.

Atheist Social Night

2008-08-24T18:13:00.008-04:00

Philosophychick and I have decided to have our Atheist Social Night. The event is open, but don't come if you're going to Preach, Proselytize, Provoke, or Punch. We hope to have a great turnout.

Thursday, September 4

6:00-9:00

Amigo's Mexican Restaurant

1705 W Market St

Johnson City, TN

You may RSVP on Facebook.

I fooled PZ Myers!

2008-08-22T14:28:00.004-04:00

PZ Myers was taken in by my performance on the Atheist Experience show.

Out and Proud Atheist Shirts

2008-08-14T15:10:00.008-04:00

As part of my resolution to be more out this coming semester at school, I have bought two shirts from The Affable Atheist store.

First, a parody of Abercrombie and Fitch:

And then just a shirt with Atheist written all over it:

I plan to wear these out and about and see what kind of reactions I get. While the south can be bad at times, I do not anticipate a violent reaction. Maybe I'll get some stares and catcalls, but most of all, I hope that it gets people to think.

Abstinence-Only Education

2008-08-09T21:06:00.003-04:00

I have already written about how my school basically ignored church-state separation. This especially included sex education. In our school, we were strictly abstinence-only. One day in 9th grade health class, the boys and girls were separated and the “sex lady” (who happened to go to my parents’ church) came in to talk to us. She told us that we should not have sex, and even that we should not have boyfriends. Volunteers were taken in a game and put into two groups: those with boyfriends, who invariably became pregnant and diseased, and those with “friends” who remained abstinent and got happily married. Although my school did not allow her to show pictures of diseased genitals, I heard that other local schools did. The Sex Lady drew a phallic shape on the board to represent a condom, and then she drew a large hole in it and a happy little sperm swimming through. Of course, the AIDS virus is much smaller than a sperm, she smugly told us. The take-home message was that condoms were absolutely worthless.

This message was taken to heart by many of my fellow students. Not the abstinence part, the condoms being worthless part. Both my junior high and my high school had very high rates of teen pregnancy. When I spoke to girls who had become pregnant, they were generally extremely ignorant of birth control and believed the lies they had been told about condoms. Abortion was, of course, out of the question for any girl that became pregnant, due to her own religious beliefs as well as parental notification laws. Adoption was also never considered; I’m not sure why.

Abstinence-only education does not prevent sex, it only prevents safer sex. I hardly expect that a Bible Belt school will put condoms on bananas, but is it too much to expect them not to lie? Condoms have failure rates, but they are many, many times safer than not using one. After all, seatbelts do not prevent 100% of all deaths in car wrecks, does that mean you don’t use them at all? I would rather the school not breathe a word about sex than say these lies. In this case, the school is actually causing harm. Hardly anyone is persuaded not to have sex by this talk, however, some may be persuaded not to use condoms. Most young men have a prejudice against them anyway, and a nudge in that direction may be all they need to abandon their use. They fatalistically accept the risk that pregnancy could happen in exchange for instant gratification, or try to pull out with the attendant high failure rate.

I also remember a school-wide abstinence rally in 9th grade. The speaker was a woman who claimed to be a former model. She illustrated her commitment to abstinence by telling us a story about how Sylvester Stallone had wanted to screw her and she had had the strength to say no. The tale had no resonance whatsoever with the young teenage girls who had never thought of him as hot. There was the usual claptrap about saving yourself for marriage and how wonderful it would be on your honeymoon. My first time hurt like a bitch and made me sore for days, so I could see how GREAT that would be for a new bride and groom. Of course, secondary virginity was an option if you had already messed up, but it was clear that you were used goods and less worthy.

It is clear to me from my experiences that abstinence-only education is not handled well by the schools. Why should it be? It takes no special teaching for kids to know that they shouldn’t have sex. If comprehensive sex education will not be taught, then teach no sex ed at all. The outcome will be no worse and we won’t waste the money.

A Bold New Atheist Semester

2008-08-07T21:11:00.006-04:00

Summer is winding down and I am less than 3 weeks away from beginning a new semester of grad school. I have a lot of goals I want to achieve this next semester. I need to buckle down and do research, I will have 3 classes to teach, I need to knit more, and Philosophychick and I are hoping to start something atheist-related on campus. A freethought society was attempted last year, but apparently fell apart. I’m not sure that a school-sponsored group is the best way to go. It’s a lot of paperwork and trouble for something that may not have much interest anyway. I think a better alternative is a casual, no-pressure atheist social night at a local restaurant (with alcohol!). Relatively good success has been achieved with a microbiology social night I was involved in, whereas a Microbiology club would not have had that interest. Later, if interest is consistently high, a school club might be organized.

I’m also going to resolve to be as out as I can be. I do not anticipate this being the right time to tell my parents (see this post), but they are pretty far away from school. I’ve already been out to my professors, who are mostly supportive. Oddly enough, the one that gives me the hardest time is my Indian Hindu professor, not the Christian ones. When asked, I will resolve to proudly proclaim my atheism, and if appropriate, debate it. If that asshole street preacher comes back to the school, I’ll have a little fun with him if I can. I might even buy one of these shirts to wear.

People need to know that atheists exist, and that they aren’t evil, immoral people. Nothing I plan to do would make anyone bat an eye if it were Christian in nature. To be a proud atheist is not the same as always arguing with others, or rubbing it in people’s faces. I resolve to start the new school year off right: as a normal, happy, and fun girl who happens to not believe in god and isn’t afraid.

An Atheist at Church

2008-08-03T20:24:00.003-04:00

I am not, and have never been, a church-goer. Growing up, my parents never required or encouraged it, and the only times I found myself going was at the usually polite behest of occasional friends who only wanted the best for my everlasting soul. So it was rather odd to find myself willfully attending the Holston Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Gray, TN for the first time. One of my motives was curiosity, as the HVUUC's website (http://www.hvuuc.org/) proclaimed to welcome people of all religious affiliations or lack thereof - I wondered what the hell they did at the church, if atheists were just as welcome as believers. Another motive, perhaps stronger than the first, was hope. As a feminist and a peace-lover, I have a passion for social justice and for just helping other people in general. But as an atheist, it's often difficult for me to find a group that organizes community activism beyond the scope of women's issues, and that also lacks any religious affiliation. So I had hopes that this church might provide me with an opportunity to meet like-minded people who want to help others in the absence of exhortation.

Before attending, I had hoped that afterward I would either resent the place, or be swept off my feet by it. Not too surprisingly, neither happened, and I'm now inclined to go again in order to get a better feel for it. The woman who spoke the most and organized the day's service - Beth Calvert - was very welcoming to newcomers and introduced a number of communicative activities. One - the Candles of Community - involved inviting anyone who had experienced an "intense" week, possessing an abundance of either joy or sorrow, to approach the microphone and express their feelings to the other church members. A tea candle was lit for each person who spoke, and the intent seemed to be to elicit the empathy and emotion of the other members and to communally experience the speakers' moments of emotional intensity. I found that interesting.

They had the notorious church collection plate halfway through the service, the idea of which had not occurred to me beforehand, but which also did not surprise me. And they had a specific envelope in each plate (really it was a wooden bowl) which was intended for donations to the Unitarian church in Knoxville that was shot up last Sunday.

As an academic who's been in college for five years now, I was thrown off by the number of children who were there also. I guess when I think of a collection of progressive and open-minded people collecting together for any activity, I usually don't picture children in the collection. There was a storytelling session where all the kids gathered around this elderly woman while she told a story with an interesting moral about communication and understanding, and then the kids were expected to leave the service room and go to one of the back rooms. I found myself more comfortable after they left, but I guess if I want to go to any church regularly, I should get used to them. Harrumph.

The only thing that made me slightly uncomfortable was when that same elderly woman, who happened to identify as an Episcopalian, gave a brief sermon later on and referenced "God" and "Lord" numerous times. I guess that makes sense, if the church is inviting speakers from all religious sects or lack thereof to participate... but I couldn't help but feel slightly preached to (how strange, it was a sermon).

There's a lot more that happened that I wouldn't be able to give any interesting details about, but I feel inclined to type out a few of the church's affirmations and promotions that appealed to me:

* the inherent worth and dignity of every person
* justice, equity and compassion in human relations
* the right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregation and society at large
* respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part

There are a few other things about spirituality and truth and stuff, which I'm willing to concede, but nothing about any strict creed or dogma. And one quote from their paragraph about church membership which appealed to me is as follows: Each person is encouraged to develop a personal theology based on experience, reason and gained insight.
So the theology part seems like a bit much (perhaps spirituality or even consciousness might work better), but I was delighted to see the "reason" in there. Any church encouraging that sets itself higher than most others, I would think.

So there you have it.

Mythology and Christianity

2008-08-01T00:50:00.003-04:00

Hey everyone, Philosophychick, thegecko, and I are really busy right now, so here's an old essay I wrote for a mythology class a few semesters ago. It's about the Apollonian/Dionysian divide and expression of the Dionysian in Christianity.

The Dionysian in Christianity

Biblical Parallels
Christianity is not traditionally considered a Dionysian religion. From its inception, it has been conflicted between a repressive, distant, Apollonian God, and the close, alive madness of the Dionysian. Parallels to Dionysus are seen in some of the biblical accounts of Jesus. In particular, the story of Jesus and the money changers of the temple is an example. It is a story where a God becomes so angry at a perceived affront that he physically beats and whips the offenders. It is a story that doesn’t seem to belong in the New Testament conception of Jesus, but it is similar (although toned down) to stories about mortals who offended Dionysus, and their sudden, subsequent, violent punishment. Immediately after this, he curses an olive tree because it did not bear fruit for him to eat. Apocryphal stories of Jesus’ childhood show him killing other young children for the silly, arbitrary reasons of a child, instead of a God. Otto says of Dionysus ‘the more impetuous his nature is, the more unconditional the demands are which he makes on the souls of mankind, the more stubborn the opposition and resistance must be… he mocks all human order, that he first had to overpower the hearts of men before they could do him homage.” (76)

Another New Testament story reflects the sudden, confrontational nature of the Dionysian This is the story of Paul’s encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus. It is many years after the crucifixion and ascension of Jesus, and Saul is a devout Jew bent on exterminating Christians, yet on a lonely road there is a blinding burst of light and a demand, not a request, from Jesus to follow him. Saul remains blinded until he is healed by a Christian named Ananias, and then he becomes the most famous evangelist of his time, changes his name to Paul, and basically invents most of Christianity. This story is very unusual and Dionysian also in that Jesus seems connected to the underworld. He not only rises from the grave once to defeat death, but again to call unsuspecting persecutors (or comes down from heaven, but there is no difference mythologically.) It is difficult to reconcile this life-changing experience with Paul’s later prohibitions to the early church. Paul was particularly concerned with the behavior of women in the church. Many commentaries suggest that Paul’s advocacy of Christian women’s headcovering and silence in the assembly are an attempt to differentiate them from mad maenads of the Greek religion.

Parallels between Dionysus and Jesus are also found in his association with women. Otto says over and over again that women were hugely important in Dionysian worship. In the New Testament, we find that Jesus is almost never without a woman or two by his side, especially Mary Magdalene. This is highly unusual for the mores of Judaism at the time, and was heavily criticized. Just as the women went to Jesus’ tomb on the third day, so the Greek women “threw sacrifices down to the ‘guardian of the underworld’ on the festival of Dionysus’ return from
below.”

Dionysus is the God of Wine in Greek myth, Jesus is no less associated with it. His very first public demonstration of his divinity was to turn water to wine at a wedding. He demands we drink wine as his blood. Many fundamentalists try to disassociate from this by saying that wine in that time was less alcoholic, or watered down in order to enforce a total ban on alcohol today, but these reasons seem hollow.

Contemporary Practices
The worship in a mainstream Christian denomination is very traditionally Apollonian, not Dionysian. There is no strong emotion, the music is of a soft beat and rhythm, the preaching is straightforward and intellectual, and the service is highly ordered. This includes most Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, most Catholics, and affiliated Baptists. However, there are some denominations and small sects whose worship practices include Dionysian madness in rather unusual and extreme forms, such as speaking in tongues and snake-handling. Also, the effects of youth culture of the sixties is really only now being felt as the young adults demand more emotionally relevant music and services that are far more Dionysian in character.

Speaking in tongues is a poorly understood feature of Christianity. Most Baptists and other denominations will reluctantly admit that it can be a real spiritual gift, but just try doing it during one of their services. The Church of God is a denomination that regularly supports its happening during services. It is sought after by they and other Christians as a true article of faith, but it is simultaneously frightening. I once saw a woman speaking in tongues in the Lee University library, as she was being held up by two other women. What kind of power is so compelling that you would make an idiot of yourself in a place that is supposed to be so quiet? Dionysus is the “God who Comes,” especially when it is not necessarily appropriate for him to. The loss of control and unearthly words seem more suited to a demonic power than a Christian one. In fact, many churches say that if a divine “interpretation” is not forthcoming from the preacher or another elder of the tongues, then it is a manifestation of the devil. People have been thrown out of their church for non-sanctioned speaking in tongues. Of course, it is true that some people ‘fake” speaking in tongues quite consciously, especially teenagers in denominations where it is required for salvation, but this is not an explanation for most of the phenomenon.

Snake-handling is an utterly fascinating manifestation of Christian worship. It is unimportant that it may have less than 2500 followers or that most Christians denounce it quite vehemently. Because of its controversy, all small, fundamentalist churches of the south are influenced by it, and the perception of them is tainted by it. It started in my hometown of Cleveland, Tennessee due to a man named George Hensley. He died from a snake bite in 1955, ironically. Their reasons for this practice are a few verses in the New Testament; “They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” – Mark 16:18. Obviously, this is literalism to the highest degree. The worship itself includes music and dancing with the handling of the snakes. It is so reminiscent of our conceptions of the pagan practices of Dionysus and other Gods that most other Christians do not hesitate to say so. Devotees say that the feeling is better than any drug, that they are intoxicated and in an ecstasy when they take up the serpents.

Although the preceding are extreme forms of Dionysian worship, it can also be argued that the concept of transubstantiation in Catholic mass (but not Protestant communion) is highly Dionysian in concept. What is more Dionysian than to suggest that a priest can call your God out from the underworld so that you may drink his blood and eat his flesh? There may not be wild dancing and singing, but devout Catholics have high emotion and religious ecstasy during this time. I even saw a church that had a “coming down” area with chairs and tissues outside the sanctuary. It seems that churches with a high Hispanic attendance have more of this fervor. It is likely a difference between a culture that values faith and expression versus a culture that values fact and propriety.

The Dionysian is most at work in most mainstream Christian denominations today. Bitter struggles are still going on in many churches over what are called “contemporary” worship services. Contemporary worship grew out of the counterculture of the sixties and seventies. It has been used in youth groups for many years, and now those youth want it in “grown-up” church. It uses the guitar and drum-driven “rock” beat with new choruses and songs instead of old organ hymns. Music is absolutely central, often to the detriment of preaching. Strong emotion is evidenced by the raising of hands, closing of eyes, crying, and the fact that services often run over the allotted time. These tactics are especially useful in an isolated “church camp” situation, where they lead to numerous conversions. Participants commonly talk about being “on fire for Jesus,” or “having a personal relationship with Jesus.” The older generation is inherently suspicious of such practices because they do not conform to a staid, Apollonian interpretation of Christianity. Churches are dying and splintering over this controversy, which is commonly talked about as if it were only about the music. Churches are struggling to find a balance between the two extremes and appease both generations. Some churches are large enough to have separate services, but the age groups then remain isolated. Others mix the music and style in the same service, and the most extreme of either group may leave the church. Some denominations reject ‘rock” music and its attendant worship style as evil, and they are mostly dying off. Other churches are made up of only young adults and others of a contemporary mindset, these churches may not have as much tradition and stability. The battle over “music” today threatens to change the whole face of contemporary Christianity. Every church must work out its own compromise, and every older Christian must decide if their own personal prejudice is more important than the future of the church. It is truly Dionysus versus Apollo all over again. It is fascinating how millennia-old concepts of one dead religion are now playing out in the evolution of a totally different religion.

Microbiologychick has been a bad girl

2008-07-28T15:15:00.004-04:00

The Atheist Experience TV show had a new caller yesterday.

Bele Chere Fundie Fun

2008-07-27T02:05:00.005-04:00

Philosophychick and I went to Bele Chere in Asheville, NC on Friday night. We had a great time. I bought myself a kaleidoscope and a necklace from the vendors and Philosophychick and I shared a phallic chocolate-covered frozen banana. We also ate deep-fried oreos, some funnel cake, and we ended up having to take our dinner home from Jerusalem Garden Café (where we watched an excellent bellydancer). I also bought a bunch of chocolates from the Chocolate Fetish. And of course, we drank dark microbrews like it was going out of style.

Ok, now that I’m done pimping Asheville, on to the atheist-related part: the Street Preacher. You know how they are; everyone’s out having a great time and some guy with a big sign has to come ruin it for everyone. All these preachers’ signs look alike: white with big red letters and SODOMITES in all caps. There must be a special on them at the Fundie Sign Factory. The usual anti-gay messages were duly represented as well “the fool hath said in his heart that there is no god.” The street preacher group at Bele Chere was remarkably well-behaved. They stood silent until approached and honestly made the out and proud gay people who were taunting them look worse.

A few guys and girls were crowded around the ringleader of the street preachers debating vigorously but respectfully. Philosophychick and I joined this group. A young guy I will call Bible Boy was trading verse for verse with the preacher and obviously annoying him. Some drunken guy was interfering with the semi-rational discussion by attempting to hump the preacher. As fun as that may be, it is also illegal and only reinforces the preacher’s view of gays as reprobate sinners. His cause can only be weakened by rational destruction of his points.

The full conversation is lost to me (blame alcohol and late nights), but I’ll hit some key points. The preacher kept saying that the Bible said we needed to be saved from our sins. I asked
“Why should I believe the Bible?”
“Because God commands it.”
‘How do I know God commands it? I’ve never felt the presence of God. What evidence is there for god?”
‘Read the Bible with an open heart and the Holy Spirit will convict you.”
“I grew up Southern Baptist and prayed for God to reveal himself to me and he never did.”
“Well you were never really saved. You cried and prayed a little prayer, but you just wanted to sin so you stopped believing.”

It went on like that with me, Philosophychick, and the Christians arguing until we decided just to leave because it was getting nowhere. The Christian girl and Bible boy came up to us and tried to apologize for this guy’s behavior. So that was my first real time trying to debate a street preacher. I probably could have come up with better arguments had I been more sober, but it was fun anyway. I’m going to resolve to keep debating them, hopefully under better circumstances next time.

Church Camp Brainwashing

2008-07-24T07:55:00.005-04:00

From 7th-9th grades, I was subjected to the horror of church camp. It was 5 days in summer (normally June) at a beautiful place that was once a boy scout camp, but was now owned by our church. The purpose of the camp was to indoctrinate us into Christianity, of course. Many unchurched kids were recruited for what was advertised as fun, and many ‘scholarships” were available to them. (Camp cost only about $100 to cover food and transportation, as staff was all-volunteer.)

Each day started out with breakfast at the ungodly hour of 7:00. After breakfast was cleanup, then quiet time until the morning church service at 10:00. The preachers were often minor celebrities of the Southern Baptist youth circuit. The morning service was heavier on Bible study than the evening service, and was subsequently less emotional. Then we would play sports the rest of the day. Campers were split up into cabins, with 6 or so campers per cabin (plus 1-2 counselors) and there were 8 girls cabins and 8 boys cabins. These cabins all were named for a Native American tribe. Same-sex tribes played each other in sports and each girl tribe was matched with a boy tribe for brother-sister tribe prayer time. So we were forced to participate in sports, no matter what. If you didn’t want to mountain bike, they still made you walk the trail. I hated it with a passion. After sports, we had supper, then seminars. These seminars would revolve around some topic like “How to lead someone to Jesus,” or everyone’s favorite, “Abstinence”. After seminar, we had brother-sister tribe prayer time and maybe a canteen break for cokes and candy. Then we would have evening service, which revolved around music. Hours of repetitive, hypnotic music and alter calls with counselors at the ready. We were exhorted to confess our sins and to let the lord lead our life. We were told to keep the fire of camp burning and let it bleed into our daily lives. After the service, we went to the campfire, a huge bonfire by the lake. There we were told we were like the embers being sent out on a mission when we got back home, some of us would go out quickly, others would burn for a long time. After campfire, we went back to the cabins where we were supposed to have prayer with our bunkmates. By this time, it was often about 2 A.M. If the girls got giggly, it would be 3 or later until we were all in bed.

Camp was specifically set up for brainwashing and indoctrination. The isolated setting meant we had few distractions, especially secular ones. You weren’t allowed to have CD players or gameboys and such (This was 1998, slightly before widespread cell phones and ipods). The wilderness setting was frequently used to illustrate the grandeur of god. The repetitive music was like a meditation to close your mind from critical thinking. The sleep deprivation made us more emotional and suggestible. The constant activities left no time for solitude or thinking. Predictably, conversions and rededications were numerous. Most people burnt out within a few weeks of camp, but lasting harm was done to some.

The preaching at camp was generally poor, as far as preaching goes. It was far more emotional and anecdotal than the biblical preaching of “grown-up” church. Stories of dubious authenticity were told as gospel. One of my favorites was about a dumb, redneck type of Christian boy who has to deal with an evil smart atheist evolutionist boy at school. The boy faithfully brings his bible to school every day and leaves it on the corner of his desk in class. Atheist boy begins to pick it up and read it, making fun of it at first. Eventually atheist boy gets saved and becomes a Christian. There were also many cautionary tales about your friends dying in car wrecks and such and going to hell because you didn’t tell them about Jesus. Some preachers also made the boys and girls sit on separate sides of the patio during services, which infuriated me as my only friends at camp were always guys and not the bitchy girls.

Camp sucked in many other ways that had nothing to do with religion as well. The heat, mosquitoes, scorpions in the cabins etc…The food was good, though, and I liking tubing on the lake. That’s about all the good I can say about church camp.

Atheism and Holidays

2008-07-20T19:33:00.002-04:00

Being raised without religious inculcations, there was a lot of crap I never had to learn to deal with, get over, or escape from (a lot more than I ever thought possible, as I've learned from recent posts). But holiday celebrations were always a prominent aspect of my childhood. Both my parents were atheist, but every year we would always celebrate Easter, Christmas, and most other religious or non-religious holidays that U.S. culture tends to pay attention to. I don't remember any exact occasion in which I asked my parents about the details behind both celebrations, why we have them, etc, but I know I must have at some point. And by the time I stopped asking, I had some idea that they were religious-based, but that I largely didn't have to care about that because the things we do to celebrate it aren't really religious in nature.

I loved Christmas. I loved that whole season so much, and I still do, to some extent. It was so uplifting and sparkly and beautiful everywhere you went - the movies and music and decorations were so dazzling and moving and laden with memories. It was only after I'd been in college for a while, learned about various harms that religious leanings and practices can lead to, and started analyzing parts of my personal life, that I developed a less enthusiastic opinion of Christmas. The transition really sucked too.

My brother has for some time now virtually abandoned the celebration or recognition of most holidays, and explained to me his ethical motivations behind doing so. As a feminist and an atheist, I could understand and even agree with most of them, but I had such strong emotional ties to all the aspects of celebrating Christmas especially that I couldn't buy into it immediately. It was kind of a longing for past simplicity, I guess. Before the rest of the family knew I was atheist, before I recognized the biases and ignorance implicit in the biblical nature of Christmas, and before I matured to the level of wanting to maintain consistency between my actions and beliefs... before all of that, it was just a beautiful time of year with good spirits, good food, and generosity abounding among everyone. And I wanted it to stay that way.

Nowadays, there are many reasons other than my own ethics that prevent such a nostalgic version of the holiday from manifesting in the way that it used to, like changes in extended family members' attitudes of inclusion, in other family members' health and capacity to hold gatherings, in still yet other family members' geographical locations, etc. But I still hold onto the childhood memories I have of Christmas with deep emotion, and genuinely miss the sense of connection that I had with my family and (so it seemed) the rest of the world during the holidays. I'm still conflicted in wanting, on the one hand, to raise my hypothetical children with Christmas celebrations so as not to deprive them of such treasured memories as my own; or, on the other hand, raising them in the absence of bias- and ignorance-laden "holy days". There's always the option of celebrating Xmas, and leaving all the religious hoowah out, which is essentially what my parents attempted to do. But it has still left me with an emotional attachment to the celebration of a religion I have come to abhor, which presents its own problems. This seems like a good stopping point.

Atheism and Family

2008-07-19T22:18:00.001-04:00

I have a confession to make. I, Microbiologychick, the militant founder of this Atheist Girls blog, am not out to my family. I am stuck deep in the Christian closet. Why?

Because I’m a fucking pussy.

Well, that’s what it boils down to. I just know what is going to happen when they do find out, and I don’t have the balls to deal with it. It’s not as if there will ever be a good time to do it, but I just don’t want it to be right now. I am not even financially dependent on them anymore. I just want to have a nice Thanksgiving and Christmas. I just want to have pleasant conversations with my grandmother without her crying and running a guilt trip on me. I don’t want to hear my dad yell. I don’t want my teenage cousin asking the youth group to pray for me.

I was born and raised Christian, my family is all Christian, to not be Christian is simply unthinkable. My family’s Christianity is central to their entire lives. To say that we are a tight-knit family is an understatement. We all live within one mile of each other and generally saw each other every day. We all went to the same church. You couldn’t take a piss without someone knowing about it. This was my life until I went off to college.

If I were to drop this bomb in their laps, the wailing, gnashing of teeth, and general drama would rise to biblical proportions. My family can’t have a calm, reasoned discussion about what to have for dinner, much less whether or not there is a god. The very minimal dissent from their super-conservative opinions that I do occasionally express is treated as highly suspect. Your “true Christianity” can be called into question for simply taking some bible passages figuratively instead of literally. Their opinions are the only correct opinions. My family believes that education and intelligence must be used sparingly, lest your arrogance and pridefulness become your downfall.

Also, my family has no shame. Shame is secondary to my grandmother’s playing up of the victim role. When they had a prodigal son before, she perfected the long-suffering mother thing. They’ll air that dirty laundry as a flag under which to gather the troops for intervention.

They will say that this is something that I DID TO THEM. It is their suffering and embarrassment that is important. I am calculating and evil because I refuse to conform to their mold. They think they own me and have a right to an obedient, sweet automaton who will marry, pop out babies, and go to church like they did. Deviation is failure and unrepentant atheism is the ultimate failure. It is the failure to secure my soul for the kingdom.

Now, will they eventually find out? Probably. Kazim, a prominent atheist and regular commenter here has expressed it thusly: The longer you wait to tell them, the stranger the way they’ll find out. With all due respect, I don’t think it’s going to matter to my family how they find out. By refusing to make a decision to tell them, I am relinquishing control to random circumstances (or alternatively, malicious characters). I don’t like this idea, but neither can I bring myself to intentionally destroy the few positive aspects of the relationship I have with my family.

At this time, I choose to hunker down in the closet like a coward. It’s not honest, it’s not admirable, it’s not courageous, but it’s real.

Even More Atheist Reading

2008-07-18T21:20:00.006-04:00

I really need to quit going to Barnes and Noble. After a lovely meal with thegecko and her husband, we went to Barnes and Noble where I purchased two books. I got Bertrand Russell's classic "Why I am Not a Christian"

and Daniel Dennett's "Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon."

I am never going to get all these books read.

We're part of The Atheist Blogroll!

2008-07-17T18:52:00.006-04:00

Atheist Girls has been added to The Atheist Blogroll

You can see the blogroll in the sidebar. The Atheist blogroll is a community building service provided free of charge to Atheist bloggers from around the world.

Love, Sex, and Conversion

2008-07-17T17:30:00.005-04:00

One of the tenants of religious dogma that really gets to me is the expectation that people, especially women, will remain innocent little virgins until their wedding night. Then, of course, they only have sex with the expectation that children will result. I think this is a very unrealistic expectation for a variety of reasons. Surveys of middle-aged and elderly individuals, as well as historical records, show clear evidence that premarital sex is not a new thing and has in fact been a common occurence for thousands of years. Even for those from previous generations who did wait until marriage, the task was relatively easier than it would be today. Thanks to the Double Standard, boys were allowed (even encouraged in some cultures!) to cavort with prostitutes and women of "ill repute" and to take mistresses after marriage (rationale: so that they could satisfy their needs while the wife was pregnant with their precious sons), while girls were often married off within just a few short years of sexual maturity. At most, maybe the average person had to fight off 2-3 years of sexual urges, maybe 5 years if they were really unlucky. Today, people reach puberty at earlier ages than ever before and marry much later in life. Twenty years is a long time to take cold showers and try to picture grandma in her underwear every time the testosterone flares up.

In my opinion, trying to live up to this silly ideal all too often results in young people marrying for the wrong reasons. I.e., they marry before they're ready so that they can get into each others' pants, and when they start having sex, they have no idea how to manage the more serious aspects of it and wind up with children before they're ready to be parents. I held out until I was 19 for the sole reason that I refused to have sex until I could get my hands on reliable birth control without having to go through my mother. In my family, it is believed that the hymen confers magical immunity from all gynecological problems, so of course, only sexually active sluts and married women need a "female" doctor. The fact that my first fling evolved into a serious relationship that later led to marriage is entirely irrelevant. We didn't get married in order to have sex or live together (been there, done that, got the T-shirt) or because the sex was good (try amazing). We got married because after 2 years of dating (8 months of which was long distance), dealing with the fallout of some very bad events that occurred in his life, several long road trips together, and 1 year of cohabiting in a veeeeery tiny space, we had developed a deep love and a strong underlying friendship. In short, we knew we were in it for the long haul and that we could face adversity without running for the hills or killing each other. Today is our 4th wedding anniversary, and it's only gotten better with time.

There's also an expectation in many religions that your intended spouse is either already a member of your faith or will become a member sometime before or right after the wedding. I got a lot of flack from my family because my wonderful husband has no use for religion and refused to become a Roman Catholic in order to marry me. The nagging started right after we became engaged and did not stop until I pointed out to them that it would be incredibly dishonest of him to convert to a religion for the sake of pleasing them. My own father converted three months before my parents' wedding. He went through all the motions, read the bible daily, sat in the front pew every week, passed out wafers during communion, and looked for all the world like a devout husband and father. In truth, he was an abusive and controlling asshole who used passages from the bible to "prove" his imagined superiority over my mother and convinced my brother and me that we were worthless human beings with wicked hearts. (I haven't spoken a word to the man since my parents' divorce 8 years ago and it was the best decision I ever made.) Because of him, I learned that respect, trust, consideration for others, and open-mindedness were better qualities to look for in a mate than a certain religious label.

I'd also like to refute the claim made by most religions that you even have to marry at all. It's not for everyone; the world is full of all kinds of people, and some just don't fit into that mold. People would be much happier if they'd just be honest with themselves and all potential partners, and live in a way that makes them happy.

Leaving The Church

2008-07-17T16:55:00.009-04:00

I was born into a very large Italian-catholic family that had made its home in the south. My grandfather was a very successful businessman and a self-made millionaire, and because of my grandparents' incredible generosity and community spirit they are regarded by most people in our area as some kind of local royalty. They have also been very generous with the local catholic churches, and have a very large plaque on their wall (allegedly sent by the pope himself) thanking them for their good works for the diocese. They have eight children who all live in the area and 30-odd grandchildren who are all mostly within driving distance. My mother was the baby of the family and we wound up living in the same subdivision throughout my early life. Growing up, I was the catholic princess. Every Sunday we went to church in our Sunday best and sat in the front pew with my grandparents. I went to the local catholic school (they insisted) where religion was a class, we sang hymns in music class, and masses were performed every Tuesday and Thursday morning at 8 a.m. Every so often the assistant pastor would come in and take confessions from all the kids in the equipment room in the gym. Faith was everywhere…we lived it, breathed it, and ate it in our Friday fish dinner.

And yet, the older I got, the more I started to notice things that just didn't make logical sense. I remember one day when I was in the second grade; I was discussing a Presbyterian friend of mine with my best friend at catholic school, and she made a comment that we were luckier than her because, since we were catholic, we were assured a place in heaven, whereas my protestant friend would have to work hard to earn it. That really bothered me for a while, because I was afraid that if that were true, my friend might not be able to join us in the afterlife, for no other reason than an accident of birth and what her parents chose to teach her.

My first communion was an utter disappointment; I simply could not wrap my brain around the idea of transubstantiation and the cracker we got didn't bear the vaguest resemblance to flesh. If they had been passing out tuna sashimi….maybe then it would have been believable, but even at age 8 I knew the difference between meat and something that was not meat. I could buy the idea of symbolic transubstantation, but you try bringing that up in a catholic youth group and see what kind of a reaction you get. My first confession felt like a joke…I was a sheltered kid that knew nothing of the so-called sins our teacher had given us as examples. I couldn't think of anything to tell the priest, so I made something up. My penance was to say the Hail Mary prayer 10 times. In the fifth grade, our teacher was a French-canadian grandmother who had been raised in a convent. One of my clearest memories in her class was the day she lectured about Moses parting the water. To the shock and horror of most of the kids there, she explained that she thought it was silly to think Moses caused a miracle when the area where he probably crossed is notorious for drying up and then flooding with the changing of the seasons. Her point was that it was more likely that Moses knew the riverbed might still be dry and that the Egyptians were just victims of bad timing. I still miss that lady. She was the only teacher at that school who encouraged independent thought.

I think the final straw for me came when I was 16. The former bishop of our diocese was a jolly, grandfatherly sort of man who was a close friend of my grandparents. He visited the family on a regular basis, and was practically an extra grandparent to me when I was small. Around the time the huge catholic sex scandal started making the news, he was called to take over a larger diocese in florida whose bishop had been exposed as a child molester with numerous victims. Before he left, he said a final mass in which he preached against the evils of arrogance and the abuse of power and how it was a poison in the clergy that had to be removed. Six months later, a somewhat younger priest came forward and accused our former bishop of coercing him into performing sexual favors while he was his student at the seminary. Apparently, the charges were true; the bishop admitted to doing this and resigned. I was scheduled to undergo the sacrament of confirmation later that year, and although I was strongly opposed to it, I was given no choice by my family. I skipped all but three of the weekly confirmation classes and went to the mall instead. When the big day came, I hated myself for standing up in front of 500 people and lying.

Later catholic condemnations against abortion, birth control (!!), and homosexuality only further convinced me that I wanted no part of the Roman mess. I've dabbled in other religions over the last ten years, but I always eventually found the same old flaws and ran away screaming. Today, you could probably describe me as a weak atheist. I am happy to say that I have not set foot inside my old church in four years, and the last time I saw the inside of a confessional was in 1994. I'm done apologizing for nothing. It's probably worth noting that our original parish church burned down the day after I was baptized in 1982. Talk about foreshadowing…

Blaming Women

2008-07-16T15:52:00.006-04:00

"This is also the type of thinking that has led to the subjegation of women in Judeo-Christian cultures. Women are thought to bear the brunt of god's punishment because Eve "seduced" Adam into eating the apple (Good ol' Adam was too chicken-shit to take responsibility for his own actions and blamed his wife for everything when god confronted them)."

This is to some degree a reply to one of thegecko's responses (partially quoted above) to another post. I find amusement in the parenthetical here, and I've heard that claim before - that women's "temptation" of men renders them deserving of whatever misfortune comes their way. This isn't even a strictly religious tendency either; here in the south I've come across more than enough people who seriously believe a number of fucked up things regarding what women deserve. For example (Microbiologychick shall be assisting in the compilation of this list):
1) getting pregnant a'tall - the male is simply giving in to his "natural" (and therefore blame-free) weaknesses
2) having sex a'tall - consensual or not, women's bodies are public property to be objectified and used as the men see fit; and women are blamed for dressing or acting a particular way if they are attacked, or simply assumed to have desired and enjoyed the attack; the very presence of women leads men into temptation
3) raising shitty children as single mothers - if a kid turns out successful or even ok, it was by the grace of god; if she/he turns out like shit, it must have been because she/he lacked a father
4) feminizing and suffocating their male children - if a male child turns out to be gay, it must have been due to his mother's overnurturing either inside or out of the womb
5) the sinful nature of all of humanity, as explicated by Thegecko
6) the double standard of either being an icy prude worthy of ravishing as a means of enforcing her feminine sexual nature upon her unwilling but desiring body cavity, or a raving slut who's willing to do anything and everything with only you and loving every second of it. The ultimate woman would be a pure virgin (where no man has gone before) who just so happens to know all ins and outs (pun very intended) of perfected penile pleasure.
The list would go on, but we're running out of steam. Addendums are welcomed!

As kind of a side note, I have recognized the dichotomy evident in men's general attitude toward women: as either fuckholes in which to plant their seed; or loving, asexual mother figures who embrace them unconditionally in the face of every atrocity imaginable. I recognize it, but I don't get it. I guess it makes sense if men's sexual drives are repressed by their parents (predominantly by their mothers, as the key teachers of "morality") from infancy on, and they are taught to simultaneous hate, resist, covet, and ravish all women as a group. Thanks, Xianity.

The Fear of Hell

2008-07-16T12:03:00.004-04:00

Over the last few days, as I've seen this blog grow, and my atheism ripen and blossom, I've realized that my fear of hell is almost completely gone.

Fear of hell is the strongest tie to religion most people have, of course. When you back a Christian into a corner, all he pulls out is Pascal's Wager. God loves you, but he'll torture you for all eternity if you disbelieve in him, so it's best to stay on his good side, mmmkay? Let's get this straight, shall we? God leaves no evidence of himself anywhere except in direct revelation to a certain small tribe of people in the middle east a few thousand years ago, which has been changed, distorted, and mistranslated since, and he will infinitely torture all people who are skeptical of this story. Not to mention the people who never heard the story in the first place. It sounds so absurd when you put it that way...

But I feared it with a paralyzing fear. I asked Jesus into my heart when I was 7 or 8. In my denomination it is "once saved, always saved." This doesn't quell the stress of salvation. Instead of worrying about if we had lost our salvation, we just worried about if we had been "really saved" the first time. Once I began to seriously "sin" sexually, I worried about going to hell all the time. At 16, I both lost my virginity and began driving. This was not a good combination . I became extremely paranoid about having a wreck and dying before I could recite the sinner's prayer. I still hate to drive and pawn it off on anyone else I can.

Even when I knew all the logical arguments against god, the fear had been ingrained in me. I am still not completely rid of it, and I never will be. I now consider scaring children with hell to be religious abuse. It wasn't just the sermons at church, which were never too much fire and brimstone, but those damn chick tracts! My mom had them all plus other comics by him. She didn't make me read them, I was just a curious kid who read anything I got my hands on. Pascal's Wager is stupid as a logical argument, but it's fucking brutal as an emotional argument. If you've been told all your life that these people have the truth, and if you don't do right, you'll go to hell and never see your family again, well, you do what you have to.

This is the fear I grew up with, and that has ruled my life until relatively recently. I am so glad that it finally seems to be waning. I credit a lot of things, but I give a big nod to the people of the Atheist Experience and Non-Prophets for supporting my recovery from Christianity. Without them, I would still be an atheist, but I would be a scared, apologetically defenseless one. I certainly wouldn't have a blog where I wrote strong posts against theism, and said that hell was no longer all that big a deal.

Ethics and Politics

2008-07-16T01:39:00.001-04:00

Ok, so the issue of ethics and religion is one that often confuses me the most. I mean, it wasn't until just a few years ago that I learned that priests and monks and other religious-oriented figures have historically been the ones that the masses or elites tend to address whenever an ethical dilemma emerges either personally or politically (I have no set examples, but I believe this is the case). However, this just seemed so incredibly bizarre to me. I mean I might be able to understand some peace-loving, meditating bald guy (yes it's sexist, but so is our history) in a robe to be an authority on moral considerations. But Christians? I mean, I know some Xians (usually Methodists) who do indeed value peace and conflict-resolution and human dignity (although they still tend to strive toward saving my soul out of pity), but even so, the religious doctrine to which they cling seems so chock full of hatred and bigotry... and not just the Old Testament (I'll need an authority figure on Biblical texts to help me out here). Aren't there still talks of damnation and hell and sin and finding the "right" walk of life or whatever? I mean so long as the text is telling people that they're only worthy, they're only of value, they're only loved, they're only good, they're only the ones who matter, if they zealously and unwaveringly commit their entire selves to this folk lore... doesn't that just strike anyone else as not exactly "ethical"? Microbiologychick's last post motivated me into thinking about this, because much of that text does condone rape, genocide, murder, jealousy, etc. And wouldn't that strike someone - anyone on the street really - as not exactly ethical behavior? If so, why is it that religious "experts" are so often revered as the ethical experts?

As a matter of fact, I think Dawkins actually brings up this point in _The God Delusion_. Regardless, I'm still mulling on it.

But wouldn't it make more sense for the ethical experts (if any were to be so labeled in this day and age of politics) to be people who tend to do good? People who tend to help others, seek peace, eradicate power disparities? Yet those people - often denounced as deluded and gullible do-gooders, hippies, and feminazis, respectively - are rarely given much respect or kind words in the public eye. Though this might be getting out of the religious realm and into the political realm. I know the two overlap quite heavily, especially an economic context, but I still might be digressing...

It's a Beautiful Day

2008-07-15T16:33:00.003-04:00

It is ridiculously fucking gorgeous here in East Tennessee today. The sun is out, it's 84 degrees, there's a light breeze, the humidity is just right, the trees and grass are fresh and green. In other words, it's one of those "Theist Days."

You know the ones where you'll go outside and start instantly believing in god because it's too beautiful to be random? Yeah, I tried it.

*Walks outside*

Nope, still don't believe in god. Great day, though.

The Miracle

2008-07-15T12:06:00.019-04:00

Recently, I was dragged to this play about Jesus by my family. It's called the Miracle and it is put on at the Miracle Theater in Pigeon Forge, TN. Pigeon forge is part of the trifecta of itself, Sevierville, and Gatlinburg. They're little mountain tourist traps with outlet malls, chalets, wedding chapels, kiddie amusement parks and arcades, and now, Christian propaganda.

Millions of dollars have obviously been sunk into this thing. The costumes, sets, and special effects, such as the complicated rigs to make angels fly, are very well done. The plot and acting leave a bit to be desired, however.

The story starts with creation and the fall of Lucifer. True to form, Lucifer/Satan is played by the hottest guy they have. He rebels against god, then angels and demons battle in this big scene where lots of people are flying across the stage. Lucifer goes on to be in every single scene of the whole play, influencing things from the sidelines. He slinks and skulks about until his final defeat after the resurrection of Jesus. The story of course begins with the nativity, and goes through the wedding at Cana, selection of the 12 disciples (satan is shown to specifically skulk about Judas), the baptism of Jesus by John, healing miracles of Jesus, the sermon on the mount, visit by Nicodemus, and the trial, crucifixion, descent into hell, resurrection, and ascention.

Besides the subject matter, there is a lot to dislike about the Miracle. It's a slick propaganda machine meant to separate Bible belt Christian church groups from their money. The ticket itself is overpriced, the concessions are astronomical, and it costs an extra fee to get the autographs and a picture with the "stars" Jesus and Satan. The special effects are good, and the music and singing is good, but the treatment of the stories are shallow, and the acting is pretentious and way overdone. Even the doctrine is suspect in some places (baptist doctrine--what I assume is the target audience.)

Even if I was a Christian, I would not be impressed with this piece of Christian pop culture. It's a damn miracle I could sit through it. Of course, my family loved it and want to bring their church group up to see it as soon as possible.

Hating God

2008-07-14T21:36:00.012-04:00

One of the most common claims about atheists (other than we're evil sinners) is that we hate god. The usual reply is that you can't hate something that doesn't exist. Well, yes and no. There is no being "God" that I direct my hatred toward, but I can hate the concept of such a god.

I hate the concept of a god who would create imperfect humanity, tempt them when they don't know the difference between good and evil, and then punish them and their descendents forever because they disobeyed when they didn't even yet know what that was. I hate teh concept of a god who would condone genocide and rape. I hate the concept of a god who would have rebellious teenagers and gay people stoned. I hate the concept of a god who would have the power to create the universe, but not the motivation to intervene in it to prevent suffering. I hate the concept of a god who would punish someone infinitely for a finite crime.

I hate what the concept of a god does to people. I hate how it makes them kill others who do not believe the same things as they do. I hate how it stifles their intellectual curiosity. I hate how it represses their natural sexuality. I hate how it wastes their time and their lives.

So yes, go ahead and accuse me of hating god. If theists were to prove the existence of god tomorrow, their job would not be done. The mere existence of a god (which is so unlikely anyway) does not mean that god would be worthy of worship. Don't tell me about god's plan, unless god's plan is to hide all evidence of himself, allow massive suffering, and just see what happens. In that case, god is just a big kid with ants and a magnifying glass. And we would all be justified in hating him, IF he existed.

So, I don't hate "god," because there isn't one, but I hate the collection of beliefs that the word "god" usually stands for. I hate religion (which might as well be the same thing to most people).

Country Music and religion

2008-07-13T17:27:00.002-04:00

I love country music. I’m a southerner, born and raised, and the subject matter of the music is usually very relevant to my life. I also really dislike that it is very acceptable, almost encouraged, to hate country. I hear all the time, “Oh, I like all kinds of music—except country.” Most of these people haven’t even given it a chance.

However, the one thing I do dislike about country is how heavily Christian it is. I confess that I do like a lot of the religious country songs, but the overwhelming amount of it, drilled into my head every time I turn on the radio tends to get to me. Even if a country singer was an atheist, to admit it would be career suicide. Not to even mention singing a skeptical or sacrilegious song.
Take this example of a Josh Turner song:

"Me And God" by Josh Turner featuring Ralph Stanley

There ain't nothin' that can't be done
By me and God
Ain't nobody gonna come between
Me and God
One day we'll live together
Where the angels trod
Me and God

Early in the mornin 'Talkin' it over
Me and God
Late at night Talkin' it over
Me and God
You could say we're like Two peas in a pod
Me and God

He's my father
(And) He's my friend
The beginnin' and the end
He rules the world
With the staff and the rod
We're a team
Me and God

I am weak and, he is strong
Me and God
He forgives me when I'm wrong
Me and God
He's the one I lean on
When life gets hard
Me and God

I think Josh Turner has the sexiest voice, and I like a lot of his other songs, including some of the religious ones. For instance “Long Black Train” is in the style of a traditional gospel song about temptation. I can glean some secular meaning from the message and enjoyment from the very well done musical composition and skillful singing.

However, this song just gets on my nerves. If he really has a relationship with god that includes talking in the early morning and late at night, he needs to get some medication. There is no evidence whatsoever that this being called god exists, yet some people are so deluded as to believe that the thoughts in their brain are emanating from the creator of the universe, who just wants to be their friend. And they call atheists arrogant!

One thing that is also striking about country music is its schizophrenia about faith. Kenny Chesney can get laid and saved in the same song, and proudly say so. Josh Turner has other songs that glorify drinking and sex. It’s an attribute of the South itself that it goes to extremes. It’s ok to sin all you want, as long as you eventually come back to the fold, but god forbid you be ethical atheist!

My Atheist Upbringing

2008-07-12T09:58:00.004-04:00

So here I am, a born and raised atheist. I find it kind of unfair that we have to base the word "atheist" on the word "theist" to begin with, especially since everyone is born an atheist - we're just often inculcated with a belief in some god or other along the way (that's paraphrasing someone, I can't remember who though).

I don't know if my parents ever outright told me "God does not exist", but I don't think they ever had to. My dad was all about science in various realms - cosmology, astronomy, molecular atomic stuff, etc. Over the years as I grew up, we had many conversations in which he explained the scientific improbability of a Christian god in this universe, and numerous arguments showing the various inconsistencies in the very definition of god (ex: Can god create a rock so heavy that "he" can't lift it? If he can, he's not all powerful because he couldn't lift it; if he can't, he's not all powerful because that's something he wouldn't be able to create). Whenever I'd ask the big kid questions of where did we come from, where'd our universe come from, what happens when you die, etc., I always got the scientific explanations - and they fascinated me! The Big Bang, galaxies, billions of years, evolution... fun stuff. And death was always neat to talk about. I'd ask what it was like to die, and Dad always said I wouldn't feel or think anything after I died; I just wouldn't be. Now I understand it to be something like regressing back in my mind and memories to when I was born, when I didn't know or feel or think anything. And I usually only fear the pain before hand, and the inability to do do stuff afterward. Anyway, I digress...

In the realm of ethics, I was never given any dogmatic "that's just the way things are" or "she/he/I said so" explanation. They always gave me a reason to do or not do something. It was usually a Golden-Rule type explanation (ought to be called the "Social Rule"), but they never gave it a name. If I stole something, they'd just be like, "Well how would you like it someone stole from you? You wouldn't would you? So why would you do that?" I'd never have a good response, and usually felt guilty afterward, which often did the trick to keep me from doing it again. Same story if I was outside and squashed a bug for no reason - "How would you like to get squashed when you're just walking around minding your own business?"

My parents never kept me from going to church with friends when I was invited to (and I was invited a lot). I just thought it was a thing for friends to do, and most of the time the stuff that was said in the churches never made sense to me. They kept using words in various contexts I didn't understand "our lord, Jesus Christ, Heaven and Earth, Kingdom come." I just kind of sat through it confused until I could get out and talk with my friends again. I'd usually talk about it with my parents afterward, and we'd sometimes have discussions about it. Both parents would explain to me that my friends were probably trying to convert me, which is what they think they ought to do, according to their religion. It took a few years before I understood that completely. And when I was old enough to start trying to defend my atheism, some of my friendships were queered. I'd often talk about these situations with my parents, and they would offer consolation and tell me that it's possible to have friends with different beliefs than my own, but sometimes it doesn't work out.

My parents were never able to keep me from being exposed to religious hoowah completely, especially with our location (western Kentucky for the first 7 years, and back and forth between there and western Virginia for 11 after that). But they always talked with me about the various things I'd hear in school and elsewhere about religion, asking me what I thought about it. I think I did tell them once that it would be nice consolation to think that there was someone out there who always loved you and would never turn you away. I think they agreed with me - that it would be nice. But then they asked how I would be able to feel that love and acceptance. How would I know I was always loved and never turned away if god could never hug me or console me? If I could never feel him or see him or talk with him? Would it be worth believing in something that seems so untrue just to comfort myself, instead of facing the world as it is with all its imperfections, and learning to find comfort within it; comfort that I can feel?

I can see an argument coming from the other side about people who are starving, people who have lost their entire family in some tragic accident, people who would have much more difficulty finding comfort in the real world than in a fictitious world in their minds. And I would say that those people in need have all the right in the world to find comfort wherever they can damn well find it. But that seems to be proof that such comfort says nothing about the world, and everything about our psychology. I digress again...

Well that's all I can think to talk about for the moment. I welcome questions or criticisms from all who read this; I've never had an opportunity to talk about this stuff with strangers before, and I don't know exactly what you all might want to know. I am certainly eager for feedback though.

Separation of school and Church

2008-07-11T23:38:00.002-04:00

I’ve told y’all a little about the culture I grew up in, so just for shits and giggles I decided to list every violation of the first amendment’s establishment clause that occurred during my schooling (the ones I remember, anyway)

· My high school only stopped having prayer over the intercom in 2000, when the supreme court ruled against prayer at football games

· In 5th grade, the Gideons brought Bibles to my class. The teacher stressed that we didn’t have to take them, but it is still illegal to distribute them.

· In Jr. High, a few teachers gave extra credit for attending talks at churches or other large-scale religious activities that had no educational component

· There was an official prayer at my high school graduation

· In home economics class, we were forced to write a paper on why abstinence was the best prevention for teen pregnancy, even if we supported comprehensive sex ed and birth control use

· The Christian club in Jr. High gave a play during school hours. Arrangements were made for students who did not want to attend to congregate under supervision in another area, but in practice, many teachers did not fool with letting the one or two objecting students per class go to the other area.

· On a Jr. High school-sponsored Spring Break trip, prayer happened before meals on several occasions.

· We had a Bible History class that was not critical or neutral, and we used a textbook created for Christian schools

· We had a party in Bible History and the teacher prayed before we ate

· In High school Pre-Calculus class, there was a student whose father died. He decided to come to school anyway for emotional support. Our teacher led the class in prayer with him.

· I got in trouble with the school counselor, and she spoke to my dad at church instead of having an official school conference. (This may not technically be a violation, but I think it’s unprofessional)

· Local youth ministers visited the school during lunch to eat with their students (this isn’t technically a violation, but in practice, they were more freely given guest passes than other groups)

There are probably many more…

Christ on a Cracker...

2008-07-11T00:14:00.014-04:00

I suppose many of you have heard of the college kid in Florida who took a host from a Catholic church and "held it hostage" for several days. He got death threats and generally caused a commotion. Bill Donohue nearly had a stroke, I do believe. Shame about that. The "nearly" part, I mean.

Of course, PZ Myers weighed in by promising to descecrate a host, and is now a target of a crusade to get him fired.

Of all the religious stupidities, transubstantiation ranks right up there for absolute insanity. For those of you who do not know(and I never did, as a Southern Baptist), Catholics actually believe that the cracker taken at mass becomes the body of Jesus Christ. It is not symbolic. To do anything else with the cracker besides eat it is the worst sin imaginable.

Think about that. Every Sunday, little bits of Jesus all over the world are being eaten by millions of Catholics. Jesus must be fucking morbidly obese. Several hours later, little bits of Jesus are also being pooped out by millions of catholics, but I'm not sure how they deal with that question. People have killed others for questioning that crackers magically turn into Jesus flesh for ritual cannibalism. Surely religion is a force for evil in the world.

I'm only a little conflicted on whether I support this type of sacrilage. Yeah, it doesn't do atheists any favors, but it is great fun. People who are so far gone as to worship god in a cracker arent't going to come over to the side of reason anyway. There's a line between being nice to people and giving religion a pass. There is no reason I have to be respectful of such an absurd belief. Interestingly, I would have had the same opinion as a southern baptist. My family thought Catholics were not Christians, so descecrating the host would have been fine.

If I had enough motivation, I would procure a host and post pics of its torture. I think infecting Jesus with some bacteria would be good, then possibly a trip in the autoclave and eventual disposal in the low-level radioactive waste. I think that would save my seat in hell, don't you think?

Atheist Reading

2008-07-10T18:47:00.006-04:00

Well, I finished Bonk by Mary Roach today and had to look for some new reading.

I bought God:The Failed Hypothesis by By Victor Stenger

And I finally bought the God Delusion

The cover of the God Delusion is so shiny you can practically blind someone with it. I really don't want to be flashing a "burn me at the stake" sign like that, so it will probably be a "home only" book.

The Atheist Label

2008-07-09T23:49:00.010-04:00

Atheist, Atheist, Atheist, Athiest (oops..)

I don't think I've typed the word as many times in the rest of my life as I have in the past day or so. It has been a good exercise in desensitization. I am becoming more and more comfortable consciously labeling myself with this word.

But some people don't like to use the word, and that is understandable. The kneejerk reaction of a typical southern baptist to the utterance of the word in relation to oneself is usually an unintelligible foment of Pascal's wager, argument from incredulity, slurs against Darwin, and a sprinkling of first cause. "Atheist" as a description is often uttered in the same tone as one might say "he's an alcoholic" or "he's a Bama fan." :) We also have the honor of being the least trusted minority in America and the governor of Texas thinks we are like thugs and criminals.

It isn't just the devout that react with alarm to a declaration of atheism. A lot of people do not attend church regularly, "sin" frequently, generally give no thought to religion, and for all intents and purposes live their lives as functional atheists, yet if you should dare question the existence of god, they react as strongly as a rabid fundamentalist.

I think the main problem theists have with atheism is another A-word: arrogance. How dare we have the audacity to question? Who do we think we are that we are smarter than the reigning authority? why do we want to fuck with their little perfect preconceived world? We claim to do all this in the pure name of truth? Screw Truth. They want a comforting lie.

If there is no god, then you are totally responsible for your own life. There are no guarantees that everything will be alright in the end. Life isn't fair. You are not special. Your consciousness will be dust in the wind when you die. In time, no one will remember you, and even the earth you walk upon will be annihilated. There is no lawgiver to base your moral decisions on. Religious people have an intuitive grasp of the implications of atheism, and it scares them.

Is it any wonder that people grasp at spiritual straws? That sounds depressing as hell. I almost need to convince myself again that Truth and reality are values I hold dear. In contrast to a fatalistic "life is meaningless without god" attitude, it strengthens my resolve to make this the best life I can. It makes the prospect of wasting time on false idols to be abhorrent.

Atheists, as a group, need to proudly wear the label. We need to change the perception of atheists as one from evil, immoral, arrogant bastards to one of truth-loving, good people that live meaningful lives, and just happen to not believe in god. The only way this will happen is for good people to use the atheist label for themselves. For those of us who cannot wear it openly, there are the selfless scapegoats, such as the people of the Atheist Experience,who take the punishment for us, and in the process make it safer for us to come out someday.

I'm Excited!

2008-07-09T23:30:00.002-04:00

I'm giddy as hell! I was mentioned on the Atheist Experience blog, there are comments on here, and Philosophychick has taken time out of her vacation to post! This thing is barely 24 hours old and it has exploded.

I guess I'll have to write some shit now...

Intro

2008-07-09T18:30:00.002-04:00

Salutations,

My name is Philosophychick (compliments of Microbiologychick), and I too am an atheist, but being also a feminist, I'll call myself a woman rather than a girl, at least in this intro. I'm an undergrad doubling in Philosophy and Women's Studies, and this is my first blog participation ever, so wish me luck. I was born and raised in Kentucky and Virginia by two atheists who sloughed off religion on their own separate terms before meeting each other. Therefore, I was privileged in that I had essentially no dogmatic inculcations growing up; they were both math professors and preferred to explain why I should or shouldn't believe or do or prefer certain things. I think it's worked out nicely for me so far, although it took me a while to sort out my ethics on lying... you know, weighing the pros and cons of lying for the sake of happiness, versus creating sadness for the sake of the truth. Having possessed beaucoups of empathy and a detest for conflict my whole life, the dilemma was somewhat difficult for me to work through.

Peace,
Philosophychick

There is no Vitamin God

2008-07-09T09:05:00.004-04:00

As I said in my last post, atheism is a lack of belief in God. Sometimes when I am feeling down, I call it a deficiency of god-belief.

In the south, I am cocooned in religion. I was born in the prong of the buckle of the Bible Belt. Christianity is assumed for everyone. The air is thick with humidity and Jesus. People wear it on their sleeve like the snot of the worst cold you ever had. It is a virulent meme that infects the brain and crowds out all reason. It is like the worst epidemiological nexus of virulence, susceptibility, and environment with no vaccine or treatment.*

My family would like nothing better than for me to settle down, marry a good Christian boy, pop out a couple of kids, live in their small town, and go to their church. Then my progeny would perpetuate the cycle until kingdom come. My family has supported my education thus far, but I can tell that they are growing weary of my singleness, joblessness, and general unsettledness. (I'm 23 and in grad school, for no-god's sake!) The culture of my small town is such that I could win the fucking Nobel Prize and people would still talk about the fact that I was unmarried and childless. If they knew I was an atheist, they would consider the honor completely worthless, as it profits nothing to gain the whole world and lose my soul.

It is at times like these that I wonder if I would take a cure for atheism. If it is a deficiency, then just take a Vitamin God and everything will be all right.

I'm glad there is no Vitamin God, though because:

I CARE WHETHER OR NOT MY BELIEFS ARE TRUE.

(Credit for this concept goes to Matt Dillahunty, of the Atheist Experience, and more on it later)

*Concerning South-bashing, I can talk bad about my family. When yankees do it, I feel like starting the civil war again. The rest of the country is by no means a utopia of godlessness.

What is an Atheist?

2008-07-09T08:40:00.002-04:00

So what the hell is an atheist, really?
This question has been done to death, (just see my blogroll or a google search for some in-depth discussions of the subject), but I thought I'd take a stab at it anyway.

An atheist lacks belief in god(s), by the majority of definitions of the word "god."

I don't believe in a white-bearded man in the sky throwing down lightning bolts. I don't believe in a being that created the world 6000 years ago in the Garden of Eden. I don't believe in a force that consciously and knowingly set off the Big Bang billions of years ago. I don't believe that Jesus, if he existed, was a special, divine person. I don't believe in an impersonal presence or "essence" in nature that is divine. I don't believe in Jehovah, Shiva, Allah, Krishna, Zeus, Athena, Isis, Ishtar, Yahweh, etc...

I do not claim that these gods or any others do not exist, just that I have no evidence or belief in them. Some atheists would claim that gods do not exist, and that position can be called "strong" atheism. 'Weak" atheism is much more common. If you do not have a clear, definitive belief in a god or godlike higher power, then YOU ARE AN ATHEIST, no matter what you want to call yourself.

Religious Upbringing/Sex and Atheism

2008-07-09T01:50:00.000-04:00

I was born and raised Southern Baptist. My parents went to church every week. My grandparents went to church every week. Two of my great-grandfathers were preachers. My family is steeped in Christianity. We eat, drink, and breathe it with services Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night. There was choir, GA's, RA's Acteens, Bible studies, VBS, youth group, etc... How then is it that I am an atheist?

SEX!!!

To be fair, that is not the only reason, but I think many atheists discount the power of a youth's emerging sexuality to break through the religious stranglehold. Christians often accuse atheists of wanting to sin, and in my case, it was true. Before and during the onset of puberty, I had no reason to doubt the existence of god and Jesus. With the advent of strong sexual feeling, I desired to sin greatly. I still believed in god, even as I willfully disobeyed. It was the positive experiences of good, healthy sex that led me to the conclusion that this philosophy of Christianity and this Bible were dead wrong. It was only after a sexual awakening that an intellectual awakening could occur.

I realize that many other atheists came to atheism by a strictly intellectual path, with doubt early in childhood. My path was different, with lust and confrontational blasphemy as its source. As a teen, I reveled in sex, pseudosatanism, and goth culture as I proclaimed disbelief in the Christian kids' god. I was not the best poster child for atheism. But isn't that the point? Even if I had a 'sinful" motive for not believing in god, I still didn't believe in god.
Christians and other theists still need to present evidence for their claims. Decrying atheist's sexual ethics is not evidence of anything. Nowadays, I can give you a few dozen lofty, intellectual reasons that christianity is crap, but that doesn't matter. All it took to dethrone Christianity in my life was plain, natural horniness in the face of a book and a philosophy that said the body and sexual feelings were evil and sinful.

Atheists need to be less defensive about the claim that lust plays a part in atheism. Hell, yeah, we're lustful. We're human! The disconnect between the Bible and biology is only one of the reasons atheists reject religion, but it may have been the one that popped the cherry. :)

Introduction

2008-07-09T01:39:00.000-04:00

Hey Everyone,

I am Microbiologychick, one of the Atheist Girls (I'll let my friend Philosophychick introduce herself later). I am a grad student in microbiology and I study S. aureus. I was born and raised in Tennessee in a Southern Baptist home. Thankfully, I threw that crap out quite a while ago. I thought I'd try my hand at blogging and see if anybody wants to read the stuff I come up with. Certainly few people around here want to hear about it.

Thanks,

Microbiologychick